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Today’s question comes from Tonya, who is, I know, not the only one with mixed feelings about Relief Society–the meeting, not the program. Thanks Tonya!
Yesterday at a family dinner my sister asked me if I went to Relief Society. I said yes, but I don’t love it. That led to quite the discussion. It seems in her ward MANY active women, who should be going, don’t. I said it was about the same in my ward. I certainly struggle with staying for all three hours. I know I should, and now that I have two older daughters in with me, I feel like I need to set the example. But I can’t say I’m happy about it.It’s not that I don’t like the program, or the idea, of Relief Society. I do. I just can’t relate to what seems like a lot of old women reminiscing. Or the goofy teachers. I try to be charitable. In my heart I know it’s the place to be. But I struggle.
So my question is this: What can I do to like it more? How can I change my attitude? Should I make suggestions to the Relief Society President (and risk getting called myself, or hurting feelings)? Does this feel like an old lady program to anyone else, or is it just me?
I am not sure what exactly you struggle with. What don’t you like about Relief Society? I guess once you look at that, you can determine if there are things you need to bring up with the RS presidency to ask for some changes or if there are things that you need to change within yourself. Pleaes remember also that the RS presidency is looking for ways to include all the sisters in the group, to make them feel important, loved and needed. If you have spiritual needs that are not being met, then they do need to be brought to the RS president’s attention.
I have served so often in other organizations that I miss Relief Society a great deal. I am often so busy preparing for Primary, that I don’t read the lessons. I guess I have been lucky to experience great lessons when I attend.So I personally find that I miss RS a great deal.
For a period of time I served as the Enrichment counselor. I found this to be a very challenging calling because I wanted to provide activities that were meaningful, uplifting and important to the women. I tried very, very hard at this calling. Some activities were more of a success than others. As I was preparing for the next year, we created a survey and asked the sisters what they wanted, needed, liked, disliked, liked. We also asked them bluntly why they didn’t attend. Taking those answers, we planned activities that were what the sisters wanted. Most enrichment counselors are really looking for good activities that appeal to the sisters in the ward. Suggestions, when tactfully given, are ALWAYS appreciated. We recognize that not everyone has the same interests and needs and take that into account. Not everyone is going to attend all the time.
Yes, please provide more detail!
I personally love RS. I will miss gospel doctrine any day, but I feel disconnected if I don’t get to go to RS. I’ve been lucky enough that I’ve rarely had callings that required me to miss RS.
I wonder if it has to do with the makeup of the sisters in your ward? When you say it feels like an “old lady” program, that is very different from my own experience. In my current ward, most of the people in RS are around my age (30’s). Some are younger, some are older…we only have a few that would be considered elderly.
I’m also curious what makes a “goofy teacher” (since I am currently a RS teacher). I know I have pretty strong opinions about what makes a good teacher, and I do have a hard time listening to teachers who don’t meet my ideas of good teaching (no discussion, read too much from the manual, don’t share personal experiences, etc.)
Yeah, I would try and figure out what exactly you don’t like or makes you uncomfortable. I lived in a ward for a few years that had a number of elderly sisters; the RS president told me she had a hard time getting the younger sisters to come each week because they didn’t feel like they belonged. I will admit that at first I felt intimidated, but after getting to know them I started to feel like I fit in better. We don’t all have to be the same to get along with each other.
Also, remember that you don’t have to be best friends with everyone in Relief Society. I’ve lived in wards where I had very few close friends at church, and that’s OK. But you still need to do your part by greeting people, sitting by them, and asking about them. I think that most of the people in RS are sitting around feeling lonely without realizing that everyone else feels the same way. Be prepared by reading the lesson ahead of time and making comments. I think if there’s one thing I’d change from many wards I’ve been in is the fact that teachers rarely turn the lesson into a discussion. No wonder everyone feels like they don’t belong if they never get to give any input.
Those are just a few of my thoughts. Sit down and decide what it is you feel about Relief Society. What are your expectations? What do you want to get out of it? Friends? Spiritual nourishment? Sisterhood? Opportunities for service? Often when we are feeling disappointed it is because we have expectations (conscious or not) that have not been realized.
I also REALLY struggle with Relief Society. For me, it is the teaching, comments that end up being mini-talks, and the ease with which announcements spiral out of control. It took me a long time to find coping strategies, but this is what I do.
I always say a prayer to help me remember that everyone is serving as best they know how. I also ask for an extra helping of love on my part. I used to get really irritated in RS, and the more I prayed, it became easier to change my attitude. But, if I can’t relate to the lesson AT ALL (which, as a mid 30s single and childless woman, sometimes happens), I pull out my scriptures and read on a similar topic as the lesson.
Another helpful coping skill has been to write in my journal. I know this might come off as rude, but I find I am better able to help contribute to the overall spirit of the meeting if I am writing my thoughts on a particular principle in the lesson, as opposed to getting myself all riled up over how many more minutes are left in the meeting.
I just moved to a new ward, and my first week RS was about what I expected, but the second week was really good, and then I got called to be the primary pianist. Oh well.
I’ve had a kind of love/hate relationship with Relief Society for a while. i used to always find reasons to skip it whenever possible. Imagine my surprise, when I was called into nursery a few months ago and found myself missing RS. I guess my attitudes towards RS have been changing without me noticing it. I’m just having a hard time figuring out why.
I will say that it is still very difficult for me to keep my attention span for the entire hour. It is the last hour of church, and by then, I have used up all of my focusing power. It takes an exceptional teacher who really pulls the class into participating to make me sit up and notice.
I’ve been in wards where I didn’t feel as comfortable or as good of a fit as I do in our current ward, but that has generally not had anything to do with the age of the ward (we have a very broad age range). Sometimes I think my attitude could’ve been better, but I do think there are wards where there isn’t as strong of a sense of sisterhood as some.
I really like all of the ideas above. I know our RS Pres would like feedback like yours.
We have wonderful teachers, too. Not a lot of fluff or fru-fru table decorations. Is that what you mean by goofy?
I think I understand where you’re coming from since I have some of the same feelings about Relief Society. I love the sisterhood and the opportunities to serve. But Sunday meetings don’t always live up to their potential. For me, the worst part is the overwhelming *niceness* of it all. Everyone is just trying to be so darn nice all the time and it can drive me crazy (and I’m a nice person!) I love it when someone offers and honest comment about something they struggle with or something less-than-perfect in their lives, so this is what I try to do whenever I find myself feeling stifled by all the perfect loveliness.
I feel like sometimes we worry too much about what we are going to get instead of what we are going to give as we attend Church and worship each Sabbath. I’m certain there are those in your ward who need something that only your uniqueness can fulfill. What can you do to make someone else more comfortable and to help celebrate the RELIEF that this society is intended to bring.
After all, we are there to “fast and pray and speak concerning the welfare of our souls” AND to recommit our discipleship. What better way and better place to start practicing it?
Are you guys serious? If RS is so hard to sit thru how on earth do you get thru Sunday school? Sunday school is my demon. Was for my mom , too. That was when she would go to Safeway’s and buy groceries for Sunday dinner.
This is a great discussion for me to watch as the education counselor. We have a few otherwise active sisters who avoid RS too, and I’ve wondered long and hard about what to do to get them coming. If one of them would actually come to me with her concerns, I’d love that.
Our ward has a lot of youngish mothers, so I’m betting that the single and older sisters are the ones who feel a bit out of the loop. We try to include them whenever we can, because it’s so easy for lessons to focus on how to teach or apply a principal in the home with children. Valid and important, yes, but not what everyone needs.
Um, get called into Primary, or, even better, NURSERY, and you will be yearning for R.S. like nothing else.
In Florida we had old people coming out our ears. I was assigned to visit teach one of the older sisters. I tried to reach her by phone, but she didn’t return my calls. When I reported this to my supervisor, she said, Oh, I need to talk to the R.S. pres. about that. Turns out the old lady asked that I be un-assigned as her visiting teacher because she was afraid I would bring my two small (and relatively well-behaved) girls with me.
Whatever. Wasn’t the end of my world. But then a couple weeks later she complained in a lesson that no one ever came to see her and she didn’t feel like she fit in and R.S. just wasn’t very friendly or supportive or fellowshipping, she felt.
Do you have any idea how hard it was for me to not stand up and call that CRANKY OLD LADY out?
It’s a cliche, but, you get what you put in, no?
Man, I feel like my mother is responding here. I think I opened a can of worms. I know I should like it better, I know it’s my attitude and all - but I know it’s not just me…
I can relate to what Chelsea wrote. I think maybe it’s the “niceness” of it all.
I guess I should add a little background: I have been in Primary and YW forever. I was so excited to be released and be able to go to RS. I really enjoyed it initially. I actually still do enjoy it, usually. I do realize church is not there for our entertainment but for our enrichment. I feel like I know most of the women in our ward fairly well and I love my ward. It’s just when I sit down I literally stew for most of the lesson. After talking to many people about this I have decided I just need to suck it up. Our ward is not just old people, there is a fairly even mix.
I read the lesson every week. I want to respond, but sometimes I feel like it’s better if I just keep my mouth closed. I think alot has to do with the lessons themselves, and obviously we can’t change that. But, it also has to do with the teachers. Don’t get me wrong, I love these women…it’s just I can’t relate to someone saying “if I had to do it over, I would NEVER have children in this day and age” or “my husband and I NEVER have a disagreement”. (Actual quotes - I know - I wrote them down!)
Anyway, I know all the right answers, I know how I’m supposed to feel and what I’m supposed to do. I am on the enrichment committee now and made the mistake of bringing this up, but to my surprise the others on the committee felt about the same way…I guess I was just curious if anyone else felt it too?
Yes, you get out what you put in. I worry before each and every lesson (I teach out of the Joseph Smith book) am I reaching everyone? The 18 year olds, and the mothers with older children, the mothers who have no children at home now, the single sisters, the sisters with no children am I missing anyone??? I am a mother of small children so my experiences are only in that sphere. I DO try to include everyone and I really worry that I am making their RS experience less enjoyable— BUT they will get out what they put in. I have no control over how they view RS or my lessons or anyone elses lessons. There is a sister who teaches, whos children are grown. I LOVE her lessons. She just seems to have so much depth. I enjoy RS because no matter who is teaching or what they are teaching- I try to find how it relates to MY life. Yes, I have my moments of frustration and watching the clock, but they are few. Right now I have a 1 year old who likes to go through purses/church bags and yell about it when she gets taken away- so I spend a lot of time in the hall. I miss hearing from my sisters.
In any case, I’m getting a little long here but I agree with most of the sisters here, that have posted. Not too sure about the reading the scriptures or writing in your journal. Are your lessons really so bad that you can contribute nothing? BUT as a teacher, I would MUCH rather you do that than talk to you neighbor- even in a whisper- for my WHOLE lesson. That is just RUDE and distracting. That’s all.
“niceness”
I know I just finished but I just don’t get this– People complain about things being too “nice”. What does this mean?
I haven’t been in Relief Society for a while now (primary and YW) and you’ve completely dashed my imaginings of the wonderful, amazing, dreamlike meetings that take place. JK!
The comments so far I think go a long way to covering everything:
“I feel like sometimes we worry too much about what we are going to get instead of what we are going to give as we attend Church and worship each Sabbath.”
There were times in my life I was so hungry for nourishment and support I looked forward to RS only to be sorely disappointed by lessons that focused on the new picture book the teacher found at Deseret Book or a lesson poorly translated into English. Those times made me want to cry in frustration. It taught me to be sooo grateful for those times the lesson and spirit does meet my needs. Isn’t it worth it to go to RS every week and put your best effort in for the chance that maybe once every 3 months you’ll get a really amazing experience?
It has also taught me to be aware of my responsibility in my callings. You never know when someone is hungry for what you have to give, but if you do a half-hearted job they are unfulfilled and frustrated.
In the end if you really can’t stomach it speak up and offer to serve in primary, I can’t imagine they’d turn you down.
Until about a year ago I have only either taught RS or been in a RS Presidency (was sent to Nursery and now the 11 year old girls–oh, wait, there was one year in YW, too-my least favorite thing in the world). I miss RS terribly, but am finding that I’m blooming where I am now. I think when you’re in Primary/Young Women, you’re much more active. When you attend RS you’re passive, unless you’re a teacher or in the Presidency.
We have to remember the church is for us, to get us perfected. If you see the crappy teacher as crappy versus struggling for an entire month with a gospel principle and how to tailor it to meet the needs of every person in that room you have two different perspectives.
I think you need to be safer in bringing up discussion. If someone said they’d never have children, I think you could respond in a loving way, a helpful way, to show that while raising children now is harder, there are incredible blessings as a result, or whatever you’d want to say. The fact that you brought it up and others had similar feelings might mean that other women are sitting there feeling frustrated, too. You can be an agent for change.
On the other hand, we do all like different things. I strongly disliked YW, but I endured and did a decent job. Maybe that is the way to feel about RS–you go, attend, and try to do a decent job there of trying to make things better for yourself/others (be less passive )until you get to do something else that is a better fit.
I love RS, but I’ve rarely been called into other organizations, and never YW (I think it’s because of my tattoo…) When I really think about it though, the reason I love RS is because of the women in the ward. I have made a lot of wonderful friends in my ward, and they make the RS organization enjoyable for me. I don’t particularly enjoy the lessons because of the “niceness” factor — all we do is sit around and mouth the same platitudes and pat answers that we’ve been taught all our lives, and nobody EVER disagrees with the teacher or a comment that someone makes. I sit there many times biting my tongue and sitting on my hands because I’m afraid that if I make a controversial comment or disagree with someone it will crush the sister teaching or the one making the comment. I think people equate a lively discussion where people disagree with contention and so they are afraid to disagree or do anything less than reaffirm what everyone else is saying. I’m all for lively discussion, but that rarely happens.
All that being said, I love the RS organization, especially visiting teaching. I have a very deep and abiding testimony of the power of women to minister to each other. I have seen it in others’ lives as well as my own. I know it’s hard and everyone hates it, but I have also seen miracles happen because of diligent visiting teachers. Everyone gets the cranky old lady on their list or the inactive who chases them off the porch with a shotgun. I think it’s just to balance out all the good stuff.
Different viewpoints, given in a kind, thoughtful manner can bring deeper understanding to the discussion.
I would have responded to the lady who never argues with her husband with questions such as, “do you have a secret that you could share with us” or, “my husband and I both have strong personalities, we argue, but we learn from our arguments.
And the comment from the sister, I would have approached her personally and talked with her about her comment. Asking her to clarify could help resolve the issue. If it doesn’t, you could respond with a simple, “your comment hurt me because I am raising children in these days. This is my time to be a mother. I love my children and I’m grateful that I can be a mother today.
Sorry, that totally sounded preachy. And I recognize that we all have different personalities and ways that we approach problems. I am a pretty forthright person, as you can tell from comments I’ve made.
I guess in the end, the only thing you can do is pray like anything for help and then be prepared to do what is asked of you.
In years past I really attempted to get something from the lessons, often to no avail. I would prepare for the class (as a student) by studying the lesson ahead of time, formulating thoughts/questions, and brushing up on topics that were scriptural in nature. Almost every time I did the teacher would just read the lesson out of the book, ask rather banal questions, and end the lesson. It was very frustrating.
My solution was to basically do all the things I had done to prepare for the lesson IN class rather than before. I now sit off to one side, away from the door and out of the teacher’s direct line of sight, and use the lesson manual and my scriptures to study the topic being discussed (or some element of it). Occasionally I find something to contribute to the conversation and, if given the opportunity, do so.
Amber:
I used to teach in RS twice a month. For seven months there were two sisters that whispered during EVERY lesson. The “whispering” sisters were the worst: especially if they were losing their hearing. My solution was very effective… though miraculously I was released the next month. They didn’t whisper in RS again for almost a year. It was lovely.
I stood quietly waiting for them to finish their conversation, since everyone in the room could hear it anyway (note: partially deaf people do not whisper well). It took about 7 minutes. I said nothing in that time. No one in the class but the offending sisters said anything either. I just looked at the two that were speaking and waited for them to finish. When they did, I said, “Thank you. Now, to return to our lesson…” Problem solved.
Sarah, I have wanted to do that so many times to whispering students in RS or in my classes! You rock!
I’ve spent the last four years teaching in RS or being on the Enrichment committee. I love RS! I always make sure during my first lesson that I explain how I will never be decorating the table because I have better things to do with my time than that, thank you very much. I also like to tell it like it is. I think most sisters are really relived to hear that I am no paragon of virtue (no paragon of anything for that matter.) When I hear another sister get up and give a lesson that makes her sound really perfect, I have to feel a little sorry for her. Only total insecurity can make a woman stand up and try to make her life sound really wonderful.
I think it’s up to us in the audience to add a dose of reality in that case. Everybody is thinking the same thing. I mean, that sister who said she and her husband have never had a fight? Big deal. That just means there is a lot of passive aggression going on, and somebody (she or her husband) does not want to deal with any marital issues.
In one of my lessons about sisterhood I had everyone raise their hand who had felt lonely at RS in the past month. Everybody raised their hands! We need sisterhood! To me that is the greatest service of RS. I look at it as my job to make people feel happy that they came to RS. I don’ sit and wait for people to say hello, I try to find someone who is sitting alone and introduce myself or just ask how somebody’s week is going. I am not a naturally outgoing person so this is actually really hard for me. i just know what it is like to not feel like I fit in and I hate that someone in my ward might be feeling that way too.
I guess my point is that we shouldn’t be afraid to think or say what’s on our minds. And we need to get over ourselves and be friendly. That’s exactly what Christ would do. He would never sit on His chair in the back of the room feeling sorry for Himself.
As far as lessons and “niceness”, I think what people are getting at is that often we feel like we can’t be “real” in RS. We can’t be completely honest and talk about our less-than-perfect thoughts and feelings. But we need to!
One of the most amazing RS lessons I ever sat in was one where the RS president was teaching. It started out as the typical lesson on how to make our homes a place of strength for our families. It was all the typical stuff about FHE, scripture reading, etc. It was a pretty nice, normal lesson, until one sister practically blurted out that she felt like there was “us. vs. them” in the ward, and she would never be part of the “us”. She went on to tearfully express how with her dh being less active, the things the RS president was saying would never happen in her home. It was pretty much a rant, saying that she couldn’t relate to the RS lesson…but it was done in such a heartfelt way. It changed the whole course of that lesson that day. Women all over the room started speaking up, sharing similar feelings. Women who had face the same challenges shared their stories and their solutions. The spirit was very strong. It ended up being one of the best lessons I’ve ever attended.
It just took one sister who was courageous enough to be “real”. I think whether you’re a teacher or a class member, if you want change, it has to start with yourself. It’s hard to be real when it’s not the norm, but it will never happen if we as individuals don’t take that first step and start sharing our inner selves and lives.
I know we have to be a bit careful. I know there are teachers who are so nervous and intimidated that having to deal with anything other than exactly what they have prepared would completely derail them. But I think there are still many times when we can speak out.
I also know that in spite of my own efforts to be sensitive when teaching about certain topics, there have been plenty of times where I’ve put my foot in my mouth. As much as I try to empathize and relate to sisters whose situations are different than my own, I can’t exactly know what it’s like to be in their shoes.
I think the one area of RS where I struggle is visiting teaching. I wish we could be more “real” about that one. I do feel afraid to express my honest feelings about it for fear of being seen as not valiant enough. I actually detest the visiting teaching conferences they have each year where we get either a lecture or a pep talk about visiting teaching. I wish they would sit down and deal with the REAL challenges that we face with it instead of turning it all into a spiritually or commitment issue.
I haven’t felt this way about RS because I have such a complete love for the program and bought into the whole ideal at such a young age. But I feel that way about the rest of church. Every week is an internal struggle to get up and go–and I have a hugely strong testimony. I just feel, so often, like if I could just renew my covenants and head home I would be happy. My husband is deployed in the Army and I often feel like attending church just reminds me of how on my own I am during this 15 month trial–like if I didn’t go to church I would be better able to cope with the solitude or something.
I don’t get to go to RS because I am in the primary (and our RS has, maybe, ten sisters attending on a full day) and I truly miss it. Maybe it is better that way, because I don’t lose my love of RS–I can still think of it as a place of solace and comfort.
I’m afraid I love Relief Society. I know I’m practically the only woman in the room under 50 because everyone my age is in Primary or YW, but I still love it.
I love the funny comments, the deaf ladies, the opinionated ones. I love Enrichment, and cooking meals together and sewing together. I love it.
Tonya, you are absolutely powerful enough to make Relief Society your own. There will always be something to complain about, and there will always be something that’s not perfectly right. Jump in anyway. Embrace those rude ladies, smile at the obnoxious ones. Grab hands with the older, quiet ladies who you don’t think you have anything in common with.
Be the brave one and be honest during a lesson (eljee, that was awesome, btw). Everyone wants permission to drop the perfect Mormon act. Be the one. That certainly doesn’t mean let everything hang out there all over the place, but let yourself be given to the community of women and see what happens!
I’ve been in nursery for the last year, Primary for several years before that, and I miss Relief Society. My ward freaked me out at first–my first week there they were taking suggestions for Enrichment meetings, and someone raised their hand and said “Menopause!” and I went “Aaaah!” But it turns out that the women in my ward who are in that menopause stage of life are very comfortable in their own skin, and they tell it like it is, and they allow me to speak up and say my piece too, and I love being able to do that.
I loved eljee’s story too. And I love what Justine says: we are powerful enough to make Relief Society our own.
I appreciate Tonya’s valid and honest question and I know she is not alone in feeling this way. I frequently look around the room and notice who is missing from our ward (Tonya is in my ward) and I know why some of them are not present and it makes me sad.
While I too love Relief Society, I also understand how sometimes what Tonya calls the “niceness” can be a little disconcerting. It’s hard to live a real life and have real problems and challenges and even tests of faith and then come to church and be fed what I call the “frosting,” or the sanitized version of our religion. I need people to be real because my life is real, sometimes even real hard. And if all I hear is how easy it is or how perfect everything is then I don’t always feel like I belong. That’s what makes RS the meeting challenging to me too sometimes. I want and need sustenance. I want the whole wheat bread, not the frosting.
That said, I know there are other sisters who are just as uncomfortable or offended when teachers get real, too. I recognize the challenge of offering something for everyone.
I’ve sat in meetings during which a teacher or a commenter was brave and honest enough to put herself out there thinking she was enduring some challenge or struggle all alone and then was completely surprised to know how many other sisters were struggling–and feeling they were all alone–with the very same thing. And the experience connected people in a way that strengthened faith even if a few people were taken out of their comfort zones.
And while I firmly believe that you get out of things what you put into it, I’ll be honest here. When a teacher gets up and “goes beyond the mark” or preaches false doctrine or starts quoting from the latest Mormon urban legend to be forwarded around the e-mail scene I am uncomfortable and I don’t really want to be there either. Maybe I’m wrong, but I don’t believe that’s my fault for having a bad attitude. We’re a lay church and we have volunteer teachers and to be honest, sometimes the teaching reflects that. If you’re not in the RS presidency and it’s not your place, how do you deal with it? I think that’s a valid question, too.
Justine’s comment (eljee’s too) is great. I’m reminded of a quote my friend Geo had on her e-mail, “Be the change.” It’s hard sometimes. But we can make things better.
As far as lessons and “niceness”, I think what people are getting at is that often we feel like we can’t be “real” in RS. We can’t be completely honest and talk about our less-than-perfect thoughts and feelings. But we need to!
I don’t think this is uncommon. So what can be done?
I love this from Sister Kathleen Hughes:
Recently our presidency was meeting with a Church leader. He commented that he wished Relief Society and priesthood meetings would be places where we would be able to say to one another, “Sisters, or brothers, I’m struggling right now. Will you help me?” I have been in Relief Society meetings like that. I will always remember the Sunday morning when testimonies were being borne and a single sister shared with us the loneliness of her life. She had experienced betrayal, a divorce, and subsequent financial hardships as she tried to work and raise her children on a small income. Now she knew the pain of loneliness as her grown children were gone from her home. The moment was sweet, the Spirit strong, and I saw sisters rallying around her, doing what we do best: love. The Relief Society room was a holy place that day. It was what every Relief Society room should be for each sister.
The challenge is that all we can do is do our individual part to help this happen (we can’t change others, but we can do something ourselves!) So, we can try to be willing to open up our hearts and share struggles sometimes. We can also being ready and quick to support those who open up in this way, and/or be sensitive when people seem to be struggling — and take the time to really find out how they are doing.
My favorite wards have been wards where people are willing to be real — to talk about struggles and how the gospel helps them, and to be sensitive to those around them. If our wards are not like this, we can let it start with us, no?
Hey Tonya, two more things.
1. Your comment about your mother cracked me up. It makes me wonder, what if our mothers were right after all?
2. And I have this two say about the “old women” (whom I affectionately refer to as “the blue hairs): Yesterday at work I was talking to this kid in my department (except for a handful of us, they’re all kids) about whether or not I would like the movie The Dark Knight. So this guy starts telling me about how he wondered if his mom would like it and about how she really did. It kind of struck me as funny–especially when I think of it in terms of us juxtaposed with your daughters and their friends in RS. We’re the old people now. Maybe not the oldest but definitely in the old category.
Yikes!
If you’re not in the RS presidency and it’s not your place, how do you deal with it? I think that’s a valid question, too.
Can we just make a comment to try to keep things on track? I am not so sure it’s not our place to contribute when something like this is happening. I’d be interested in others’ thoughts on this one.
At the very least, I think it’s worth mentioning or discussing with a leader.
Today I’m working on my very own Relief Society lesson, so these comments have been great for me to read. I’m in the presidency and we’re teaching President Hinckley’s “Be’s” for our first Sunday lessons. I’m teaching “Be True,” which, on the face of it, seemed like a tricky one . . . but I’m finding all sorts of insights and I’m looking forward to Sunday.
Anyway, preparing for my lesson brought me to Chieko Okazaki’s book _Disciples_, and just a couple hours ago I read this:
“Sometimes I think we don’t create a very hospitable climate for questions in our Sunday School classes, Relief Societies, and priesthood quorums. Sometimes we give people the very clear message that there’s something wrong with them if they don’t know something already, or if they don’t see it the same way as the teacher or understand it to the same degree as the rest of the class.
“So people lie. They say they undersatnd when they really don’t. Or they say they agree with they really don’t. Or they find one point they can agree on and swallow the four points they disagree on. Or they suppress the perfectly wonderful questions they ahve, becaue they’re afraid that the questions may sound accusatory or faithless. As a result, no miracles happen. . . . If we don’t have questions, there won’t be any miracles for us. I don’t know about you, but I *need* miracles in my life. I hunger and thirst for miracles in my life. So I think I’d better ask questions–questions from the heart, questions that hurt, questions with answers that I’m afraid will hurt.”
I think I quoted Chieko just a couple of weeks ago here on Segullah, and here I go again. But you can’t beat her insight and wisdom.
m&m–that’s a great point. And it’s not at all that I’m afraid to comment, it’s just tricky sometimes. Sometimes I have been able to offer another perspective without stepping on toes. But at other times I have just sort of waited for the presidency to bring things back around and they haven’t. That’s terribly awkward. There is no point in becoming argumentative and I wouldn’t want to, so sometimes I just sit there and feel uncomfortable.
I hope there is more discussion about this.
Angela–I love the part in the quote about creating a hospitable climate for questions and I would add discussion. The reason lessons are so basic is because they aren’t meant to be read word for word from the book, they’re meant to be the springboard for discussion and sharing of personal testimony and practical application. That’s when the miracles happen.
Shoot Dalene, I really didn’t want to be one of the old people, but I was just thinking I’m not as young as I think I am. There are definitely younger women in there. And I keep thinking my mom is usually right. I just hope my kids will come to realize that I’m usually right too. May take a while.
I am loving this discussion. I can see that I probably need to speak up more, instead of just complaining after the fact. Thank you everyone, and keep on commenting. I love all the suggestions.
Having been the education counselor recently, I can tell you a lot of the issue can be with who the teacher is. Having said that, I don’t think if you’ve prepared (reading the lesson, showing up on time, following along during the lesson) and are desiring to feel the spirit - I mean really wanting it and NEEDING to feel it- that you can leave any church meeting without some little morsel of truth or light. If I’m feeling like I need the spirit more that week than others, I say a prayer in my heart during the opening prayer that I might be touched and rejuvinated.
I have a strong testimony of the curriculm that the church has put forth. It stands alone as a source of direction and learning whether you hear a lesson on it or not. Sometimes I think it’s important to pray for testimonies of certain things and that will solve some of our hang ups in the church. I think that gaining a testimony of the curriculm (not the scriptures or Joseph Smith, but the organized and tailored for us curriculm produced for us at this specific time) could at least be a step towards enjoying lessons more.
And these women teaching are just like us. Trying to figure out how to do her part in the church. Everyone has a learning curve, some MUCH longer than others. If your teacher is dry and you’ve come prepared, raise you hand and comment. “While I was reading this, I thought….” Better yet, find a question to ask the class or at least the teacher to get a discussion going. Those are the moments when we share our experiences and the moments that teach the most. Here’s an example. The lesson is on family home evening and you are a young mom. Raise your hand and ask what other moms (the old women) did to keep their kids’ attention. The biggest secret of teaching in the church is to ask what other women do to live the gospel. Doesn’t matter what the principle is. Ask how they do it and you’re sure to be enlighted!
I hate RS too! So glad I just got a Primary calling! I served in the RSP for my last calling and I was hoping that would help me understand where I fit in and how this program works in the church. I think it just got worse! I go, when I am not serving in Primary or YW, but very reluctantly
Dalene,
I agree — sometimes it is hard to know what to do when teaching/comments go awry. There aren’t easy answers. Part of the challenge of a lay church is that we have lots of opportunities to learn charity while we all learn how to do our jobs better, learn how to interact and be honest and kind, and all else that goes with being a community.
I also agree that so much depends on the teachers. Some teachers are able to help create a climate conducive to comments and discussion and openness. Some are so nervous, they are lucky to get through the lesson. Some come overprepared and don’t give anyone a chance to say anything. Some may get distracted from the topic or material.
And sometimes it’s hard to remember that they are all probably doing their best.
But that doesn’t change the reality that sometimes things could be better — and sometimes we come really feeling a need for some good spiritual classes. I think that is why our general leaders are so concerned about the teaching in the Church…even devoted a Worldwide Leadership Training meeting to it just last year, was it?
I would hope local leaders have similar concerns. I hadn’t ever thought about talking to the education counselor in the RS presidency in one’s ward, but given the comments by a couple of women who have that calling right now, that seems like a viable option.
You know, as I’ve read this post and the subsequent comments, I got to thinking about my own experiences in RS and I can say that I’ve felt the similar but have been much to apprehensive to say anything about it in Church as I am a fairly new member. There is one sister in the RS presidency who is so warm and inviting to me, always hugging me and welcoming me by name. But I’ll tell you, the RS president literally avoids me… it’s really weird. I say hi to her and she meekly replies but never opens up to me. I’ve figured that she may just be shy or unsure about new members in general so I’ve just tried to ignore the vibe I get from her. But when I think of it it kind of bothers me because I would like to have a nice rapport with her. Oh well. Can’t win ‘em all, I guess!
m&m–your comment about charity is perfect. Maybe sometimes it’s a little like going to your kids’ school performances or sporting events–it doesn’t even matter what kind, any. When you know the kids and love them and are cheering them on then it’s kind of allowed to be what it is. It’s OK that no one is perfect and that someone might sing a little off key or forget their lines or strike out, or whatever. You are there supporting them and they feel it and it’s all good.
When we know and love the sisters, even the ones for whom teaching may be somewhat of a challenge, then we sort of sit there and mentally and emotionally cheer them on and love them and it’s all good, even though it’s not perfect and even if it makes you squirm a little sometimes.
Excellent comments from everyone. I’ve been on both sides of the love/hate RS thing. I’ve seen lessons that got everyone sharing and bonded us all together, and others where we knew the teacher was struggling and we all just tried our best be there in spirit as we were nodding off. If you can’t stand RS, like my mother, you know it is something you have to “endure to the end, and if thou endure it well,” someday you’ll be blessed with the calling that engages you fully and no harm, no foul. If you love RS, you have the chance to make it a place that nurtures those who come. I’m enduring my time in the nursery now. Someday I’ll be back in RS. I may be old and gray by then, but I’ll be back.
Oh and if there are whisperers who are deaf, a microphone works wonders. Ask the bishop to get you a podium with a portable mike so all the blue-hairs can hear the lesson too. If people are whispering and you have the mike already, well, offer them the microphone and say, “We’d love to hear how you feel about (insert topic.”
I have more of a problem with our Sunday School instructors than RS, and I think the charity comments above really apply. I love the g-doctrine teacher personally. So I try to let that reign in my heart when it seems like there’s no room for discussion or comments or openness. Sometimes it doesn’t work . . . or my heart is stubborn . . . but often it does help.
It seems like shortly before our son was born I was talking to my fil about feeling grumbly and ADHD-ish during church. He suggested doodling or taking notes, to keep my attention more focused. Now that it’s such a rare thing that I get to sit through a whole class, it feels like a special event to be there. Also, I’m in a better place now than I was then, which also has made it easier to focus and feel good about being there.
Don’t get me wrong, I love these women…it’s just I can’t relate to someone saying “if I had to do it over, I would NEVER have children in this day and age”
Oh, I’ve been in that meeting. It’s so horrible..and funny…and HORRIBLE when some person says that. Don’t you just want to be nasty and ask if she’s got some new message from the prophet on sterilization?
The other version is when you visit someone else’s ward in Idaho, and after you’re introduced the person conducting the meeting publicly thanks God that you’re out of Los Angeles, at least for the weekend. And I’m a fourth-generation Los Angeles girl.
“my husband and I NEVER have a disagreement”.
Bwah-ha-ha-ha. I love Tiffany’s suggestions for handling this one.
Besides the pinch-of-reality comment, the other comment that is practically guaranteed to help a lesson is when you say that the lesson has reminded you of something in the scripture, and then you read from that verse. I taught the obedience lesson last week and it did not go brilliantly. I was grateful to the sister who started reading a couple verses into it. When I’m in the middle of teaching and it doesn’t seem to be hanging together or having substance, any substance on any topic seems to help.
I’m in a ward now with a lot of mothers my age and younger. I miss the senior widows from my old ward. Their honesty and spunk was such a comfort to me. They were so willing to speak up in the face of “nice” answers despite the eye rolling of some others. I loved them and felt more at home in their company than with the sisters around my age. I miss the exchange their comments would evoke from the class. Thankfully our teacher was usually prepared for them as were we. I think we all looked forward to it.
I want to be 70 now so I can fill that role in the group dynamic. Is there a way to be an ornery and honest 30-something-year-old in RS?
I’m a RS lovah’ as well.
I think that we often view church as one-dimensional, that there is one purpose, which is for us to feel spiritually feed and rejuvenated each week–and if that was not met than it was a failure on some level. I know I’ve walked away from lessons thinking “what was THAT?” I think that church, especially RS, has so many layers and overlapping purposes–sometimes the lessons will be just for us, sometimes they’ll speak to someone else, sometimes the RS presidency is there for specific sisters who need those specific leaders at that specific time, sometimes it’s the leaders themselves who need to be taught how to be leaders and they make mistakes on our time, then we’ll be leaders or teachers who make mistakes on someone else’s time…there are so many different things going on that we may feel frustrated when what we want most (spiritual connection, learning and growth) are not happening in our lives. Just like life, there are seasons in RS. I was the RSP in my later single years in Provo…I was graduated from college but still in a student ward. I felt that there were sisters I was more directly connected with than others–perhaps those are the ones that needed me most or that I needed most at that time? Maybe some of the sisters didn’t particularly love me as the RSP, but thankfully they tolerated me and if they didn’t like my style they never let me know. Of course I would have been open to suggestions, but I was also doing my best. I was learning on their time. Hopefully the sisters who just felt “ho-hum” about RS at that time have gone on to have a more exciting and personal connection to another RS now. Ebbs and flows… I remember a former RS president once telling a friend her friend that she was needed at activities not for what she was going to get out of it, but for what her presence would give others. Maybe you won’t “get” a lot out of RS now, but perhaps your presence, your participation in lessons will give to others (even the teachers themselves) something THEY need.
I think the suggestions that have been mentioned here are great. I love some of the quotes that have been shared on speaking up and being “real.” I think a lot of good can be done in sharing our sorrows. However, I would also say that someone else’s idea of fantasy is someone else’s reality. Maybe there are sisters who really never fight with their husbands. That’s not MY reality, but who am I to suggest that they’re not being “real.” Maybe there are sisters who are “too nice” all the time, but that’s who they really are!
Migs - I love your idea of ebbs and flows. You are right, there definitely are times I get and times I give. Thank you for reminding me.
I know right now I feel like I’m going to help others want to go, but there have also been times I’ve needed the push myself.
Thank you so much everyone for your viewpoints. I’ll be sure to share this with my sister.
Hugs Tonya– you brought up an important topic. Actually, I’ve been privy to a few conversations where women have expressed that RS seems harder this year than usual. Nothing against the JS manual but something about it seems to inspire our teachers to LECTURE the entire hour. I feel like standing up and shouting “IT’S SUPPOSED TO BE A DUSCUSSION!”
I really look forward to the weeks when my awesome friend Roz with a disabled husband and inactive children stands up, invites the spirit, starts a discussion and gets into the meat of the gospel.
I’m sorry if you’ve felt attacked here Tonya– I’d love to sit by you in RS. I’ll even share my contraband Tootsie Rolls with you.
Oh my gosh….I feel fulfilled!! I have enjoyed this discussion here more than any RS meeting and lesson I can ever remember. I’ve never liked RS. And I’ve tried. Oh yes I’ve tried! I feel good to just know that I’m not the only one on the planet who hates it. So thank you for this.
I love the idea of Relief Society, but sometimes the reality is a bit hard for me too. I don’t have much else to add to these great comments about this, but I did want to comment about the whispering in Relief Society.
Side conversations really bother me too, but I had an experience that softened my annoyance about whispering. One Sunday, two women, my good friend and her visitor, whispered very loudly the entire lesson. And I mean extremely loudly. I was in agony. When the hour was finally up, I was terribly ashamed when my friend introduced me to the visitor, a woman who spoke no English. My friend had been translating the lesson. I was so glad I hadn’t given in to the temptation to raise my hand and call them on the carpet.
I wonder if it’s possible something similar was going on with the women who were slightly deaf?
Um, get called into Primary, or, even better, NURSERY, and you will be yearning for R.S. like nothing else.
Personally, I love nursery partly because it’s a way to escape Relief Society! In fact, I’ve more than once requested (and received) a nursery calling precisely in order to avoid RS.
There are a lot of comments here and I know I’m reiterating what some women have already said, but I think the point deserves as much emphasis as possible. BE REAL! The lessons I have found most compelling were the ones where I spoke up and mentioned questions I’ve had or guidance I need. We have a woman in our ward who is a creative arts therapist and she is excellent and keeping it real. In the recent lesson on death and words of hope and consolation one sister made the comment that human grief is selfish and if we had *real* faith we wouldn’t feel it. The creative arts therapist piped up, “Don’t you think that as a culture we are just too disconnected from death and don’t let ourselves feel it enough? I mean, grief is part of life.” And then she talked about her grief and how it was mitigated by dressing her mother’s body. It was so real and, strange as it may seem, allowed the teacher to put the lesson back on track. It was her honesty that did it. Be honest, be real, speak up! Even if you don’t get what you want from RS someone else in the room will be glad you spoke up because they are feeling the same way you are.
p.s. Angela-love the Chieko Okazaki quote. I’m too young to remember her so I always love it when people quote her
I have been reading through the comments, and there are a lot of good things that people bring up. I know there are times when I simply don’t want to do something. If I allow myself to take that attitude with me then it determines how I feel about the meeting/activity.
If I can change my attitude and decide that I’m going to be positive about going, for me that’s half the battle. The other part is not dissecting things when I get there. If I allow myself to hit that point, then I won’t be as receptive to the spirit. Anything I might say would come out wrong anyway so I don’t say anything at all. I end up leaving feeling like it was a waste of time. It takes a lot of work sometimes, but it is SO worth it when I just let it go and listen.
I haven’t specified RS, because for me, this applies to more than just RS. Our attitude about Stake Meetings, Stake Conference, Sacrament Meeting, Sunday Schoo, etc. Sometimes it all comes together in this great spiritual cosmic explosion that’s so wonderful we forget that the other times it takes work. Lots of work - on everyone’s part.
Besides I’ve only been to RS once in the last four years. I was so excited about going too and I ended up critiquing the teacher in my head the whole time and wondering how they do teacher training in RS. And, no, I didn’t contribute once. In fact, I had a quote to read and I was so lost in thought that *I* interrupted the focus by not reading the quote when everyone was ready for it. I left feeling completely let down and frustrated. Are there ways she could have improved? Maybe. But in the end I’m the one who lost out that day. Thank you for helping me see where I messed it up. I hope I can do better next time.
I just got through commenting on the “Living with Dying, part 2″ post, and realized that much of what I wrote there was because of what I was still pondering from this discussion.
As for being “real” in Relief Society: I think that one of the main deterrents to being able to disclose more personal comments is that generally, when things aren’t going Family-Home-Evening-manual smoothly in our real lives, it usually involves more than just ourselves and would infringe on the privacy of the other people involved. Maybe it’s our teenager who is really messing up, or our spouse who is on their way out of the Church, or the spouse that has an addiction that is causing the upheaval and pain in our lives. And while we *can* disclose that we are going through hard times, and we can maybe even let it be known that you’re going through hard times with your child or spouse, you often can’t reveal any more than that without infringing on the privacy that the other parties deserve. You can’t raise your hand in RS and admit your feelings of devastation and low self esteem that your dh’s porn habit has caused for you (or the subsequent powerful spiritual experiences that have carried you through) without publicly indicting him and ruining his chances for repenting, not to mention seriously damaging most chances for him to return and be a ‘normal’ member again. In disclosing your full, real life, you would have just permanently damaged him, your relationship, his place in the Church (because even if he fully changes and repents, everyone there still heard it and remembers it), and probably any chance that he will ever be able to get over it.
I love the internet and particularly Mormon forums like this one for this precise reason. We CAN be real here. Because we have some anonymity (sp) here, we can own up to what’s *really* going on in our lives and how others are really affecting us without damaging them or harming their chances to repent or do better. We can admit how much their actions and choices have affected us, or how their sins have made us see things differently, or even the blessing that have come to you while you’ve waded through their mistakes. And most of all, we can get the support here that we cannot get where people see us and know us and our families.
So, really there isn’t any place you can be totally real: In church, you can only hint at what’s really going on while protecting others’ privacy. Online, people wouldn’t know you if they were sitting next to you in Relief Society, but you’ve just opened up completly to them about the full scope of your current trials. At church, people can see you, but they can’t always know you. Online, people may truly know you, but they can’t see you.
Okay, I’m not using my name because I don’t want to lose friends/make enemies, but…(cue scary organ music, “Dun, dun, dun”)
(Losing friends:)
Sometimes I think the call for people to be real is a little half-hearted.
In my struggles with postpartum depression, there have definitely been times when I’ve regretted personal disclosure because I’ve either felt that the recipient will always see me as “crazy” or that they just don’t have a point of reference and aren’t feeling compassionate–which is fine, but, it’s not the best for encouraging openness. We’re all just human in having character flaws and in judging the character flaws of others. (Yes, I’m TOTALLY guilty.)
But with that human-ness sometimes comes reserve and even a fake-it-til-you-make-it social norm. And sometimes, I think faking it helps you make it. Case in point: yesterday morning I felt like CRAP emotionally. I wanted to call someone to sub for me because I just felt like throwing in the towel. (a peice of brutal honesty that your Auxially President doesn’t always want to hear because she needs you to show up and do your best.) So I faked it. I showed up. I did my best. I greeted someone at the beginning of Sacrament Meeting. I didn’t want to. And then little by little I wasn’t faking it anymore. I was just being real.
(Making enemies)
In this particular thread, with regards to when someone says if they had it to do over again– I don’t see why it’s an indictment of me and my choices to have babies. Maybe she has sorrow over how the world has hurt her child. But that moment of realness didn’t go over too well, did it? Sometimes there is such a thing as being too real. Or sometimes we aren’t very accepting of someone else’s real-ness because it doesn’t mesh with our own. (Again, I’m guilty too, but still.)
Strollerblader, what a great point! I never thought of that, but it’s true. You can’t be real if that “realness” infringes on someone else’s privacy and ability to repent.
Thank you…
and WestTexas, faking it helps me out too.
“Fake it ’til you make it” is also known as enduring to the end, eh?
(Losing friends:)
Sometimes I think the call for people to be real is a little half-hearted.
As one of the ones who said something about being real, I want to clarify a bit, because my intent was not to come across (or be!) half-hearted.
I think we’ve all had those moments when we have ‘been real’ and someone has either criticized, judged, or at least not been as sensitive or responsive as we hoped or needed. I just had that happen to me recently, and it’s really, really hard. I’m not advocating putting oneself out there to be butchered. But at the same time, if none of us is willing to risk because we are afraid of rejection, the culture will never really change, will it? In the end, we can’t make others respond as we want them to, but sometimes in risking, I think we give opportunities for others to learn how to love and serve better. We are all each other’s guinea pigs in way, aren’t we?
I also never meant to advocate that we wear everything on our sleeve and always tell someone when we don’t feel like doing what we need to do. Of course, we often will find strength by pressing forward even when we feel like quitting. But I think we can also be willing to share on occasion some of the hard stuff, and how the gospel is helping us, or to seek others’ input and thoughts on how the gospel has helped them in hard times. I think there is a big difference between being real and copping out and/or being a burden to others.
m&m, Absolutely. It wasn’t that I thought you or anyone else was advocating wearing everything on your sleeve, but rather that I was trying to point out that sometimes when you do share something personal, you get burned. I totally think that your thoughts on charity apply. It’s just that we are not always ready or receptive or charitable when others are real. I’m not even saying, “Don’t put yourself out there!” I’m just saying that there are deterents and I thought it was a point appropriate to this discussion.