Celebrating the Celibate Part 2
Posted by c jane/Courtney K. | September 26, 2007 | 44 Comments
Last June I wrote a post Celebrating the Celibate about a family friend, Christian, who is a celibate, active member of our church. My post was written shortly after an article about Christian’s lifestyle was featured in Utah County’s Daily Herald. For Segullah, Christian wrote an account of his story behind the article, and what is was like to come “out of the closet” in his celibacy. He will also be available to answer any questions in the comments section. My thanks to Christian for his courage and integrity.
I recently stumbled across Courtney’s post and was moved by her generosity and by the many kind and hopeful things said in the post and in the comments that followed. It is — in a very real way — exactly what I hoped might happen in the wake of the news article. It was an even bigger treat to see so many people I know and love in the comments. Thanks to each of you…
I considered leaving a comment in the thread, but thought a short guest-post might prove more useful. I can’t thank Courtney enough for granting me this little bit of space to give a little background and to answer any questions folks might have.
Before I go any further, though, I’d like to link to the article in question, as I think some of you might not have seen the original:
Merging Faith & Self.
So. A little background”¦
About four years ago, Daniel Holsinger and I co-founded FHEfamily — a discussion group for people and topics at the intersection of “gay” and “mormon”. It was meant as a safe and information-rich forum for college-aged gays of Mormon faith or upbringing to come into their own regarding their place in the cosmos. We met frequently, and discussed all sort of things. Then, this last February, we invited some folks from SoulForce to present their plans for the summer and, particularly, what they were thinking for the BYU leg of their trip.
One of the SoulForce guys contacted Kate McNeil of the Daily Herald, and invited her to attend the discussion as part of a piece she was planning to do — pending my approval of course. She e-mailed me and we set some ground-rules. She accepted and was invited to attend.
Kate sat quietly through the SoulForce presentation. Then, afterwards, I introduced her and told those in attendance that they were encouraged to talk to her, but that they would be anonymous unless they expressly stated otherwise. When the meeting was over, and as folks went their separate ways, Kate and I chatted a bit. A week or so later, she called, and we chatted some more. Over the next few months, we logged some seven or eight hours on the phone. During the course of our discussions it became clear that the focus of the article had changed”¦ and I got a little worried.
But in for an inch in for a mile, right?
In the week or two before the article ran, I got a couple calls from Kate and her editor. They wanted to interview my bishop. I wasn’t keen on being a circus-maker, but I promised I’d float the idea past my bishop. As I expected, he declined.
“I’m a sitting bishop, I’m not about to be interviewed by a newspaper reporter.”
On the night before it ran, I called my bishop and a member of my stake presidency to let them know that something — I didn’t know what, exactly — would be hitting the pavement in the morning. They thanked me, and we all crossed our fingers.
Some time after midnight (I waited up), the article was posted on the web, and I forwarded it to everyone without even reading it. I went to bed, too tired to think. During bishopric meeting the next morning, I asked the bishop if he’d read the article yet. He hadn’t. But by the end of the day, we had all read it, and were greatly relieved. The article was an honest and fair portrayal of much of what I felt and said during our interviews. Not a perfect one”¦ but honest and fair.
In the months since the article was published, I’ve been surprised by its impact and its longevity — and delighted by the warm and caring responses it’s elicited. I’m happy to see where it’s gone, and consider myself blessed to have been a part of it.
And now we’re full circle.
Are there questions you’d like to ask?
I’m hardly qualified to answer anything more complicated than what my name is”¦ but that’s never stopped me before.
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September 26th, 2007 @ 4:19 am
I’ll jump in first=)
What would you suggest parents do and say for/to their child, regarding others’ or the child’s own attraction?
Thanks for sharing!
September 26th, 2007 @ 8:50 am
And here I was, thinking you were referring to http://celibateinthecity.blogspot.com/
Nicely written, nicely done.
September 26th, 2007 @ 9:33 am
Thanks for doing this, Christian. I like the quote from the article: “By and large, the majority of gay men in the church leave the church, and in no small way. They leave the church and everything else behind, which is a shame. It’s a terrible loss to the church and the kingdom of God.” One of my best guy-friends from BYU left the church after several years of struggling with being gay. I always felt like he was “throwing the baby out with the bath water.”
My question:
Did you know anything about Evergreen when you were at BYU, and if so, was it helpful at all? (My friend was active in that group for some time).
September 26th, 2007 @ 11:10 am
When Christian Harrison came to Provo in 1993, his head was packed with stereotypical images about homosexuals — outlandish clothing, pedophilia — which is why he resisted acknowledging his own sexual orientation. . . . “There are gay students at BYU going out clubbing and having sex,” Harrison said. “Outside of Provo, they are as gay as Liberace.”
Why, Christian, would Liberace be your model of what being “gay” means? It sounds to me as if your head is still “packed with stereotypical images about homosexuals.” Do you really not know any openly gay men who are masculine? Have you ever heard of “internalized homophobia,” the kind of attitudes which would lead a gay man to think that homosexuals are prancing, flamboyant sissies?
He also knows that he will never be called to serve with the young men of the church or Primary children.
So, does this go back to your “stereotypical images,” Christian? Are gay men potential predators, not to be trusted around children and male teenagers? Do you make any effort at all to educate the kind of leaders who would prohibit celibate gay LDS men from serving in these capacities, or do you just accept their bigotry pass as “inspired?”
September 26th, 2007 @ 11:50 am
Good morning, every one… my, we are a group of early risers!
@Stephen: Thank you.
@Wendy: I knew of Everygreen but didn’t attend until after leaving BYU. I never really bought into their repairative approach, but found the comraderie helpful… but after three years, I decided to move-on.
@Nick: I regretted the Liberace comment the second I made it, but didn’t revisit it — hoping that Kate wouldn’t catch it. Were I to be given a second chance, I would have said “out, loud, and proud” instead of “gayer than Liberace”. And yes, Nick, I know countless gay men — of all stripes. On the church callings issue, I’ll repeat what I said elsewhere:
As for my relationships with other leaders in the Church: I’m open about my being gay, and have been rewarded with numerous opportunities to share what insights I have with them.
September 26th, 2007 @ 12:02 pm
Christian, thank you for responding to these questions.
I’m interested in what advice you have for parents? What have your parents done that’s been helpful for you? What is your favorite talk on this issue?
Also, a word to all commenters: we are interested, in this thread, in CELEBRATING the choice Christian has made to keep his covenants and stay celibate in spite of same-gender attraction. Supportive questions are welcome; attacking or manipulative questions are not. We are monitoring this thread closely and will delete comments we find inappropriate.
September 26th, 2007 @ 12:14 pm
Christian, I really appreciate your honesty and acceptance in this forum–and as a side note to Nick’s comments, it is the policy of the church to not put any men into a primary calling unless they are a part of a co-teaching team, generally with their wife as the other member of the team, for EXACTLY the reasons Christian outlined–better safe than sorry for the teachers.
I have been thinking, as of late, how to better educate myself and my kid about homosexuals as actual people, not stereotypes. We are in the military, which might as well be BYU for the amount of openly gay people we come in contact with. The only reference point we have is TV, and there only seems to be the “Just Jack” model to see. I want Jooj to understand that people are people. How do I get that across without having the luxury of friends from different backgrounds?
September 26th, 2007 @ 12:17 pm
Thank you Christian! Elder Holland writes a great article for the October 2007 Ensign which addresses this issue and gives counsel to family members and friends of those who struggle with same-gender attraction or homosexuality. He also expresses love for and reiterates the Church leadership’s desire to include members who have this very real struggle. You can read it on lds.org.
September 26th, 2007 @ 12:30 pm
Thank you, Christian, for your clarifications. I certainly know what it’s like to wish you’d said something differently to a reporter (or to wish the reporter stuck to what you did say to them)!
I agree that choice is to be celebrated. My choice has not been the same as Christian’s, but both of us have derived satisfaction from our choices. To me, the ruling principle is “men are that they might have joy,” and we all need to feel able to make the choices which will bring us that joy.
La Ven, I take it that is a relatively new policy? I’ve been out of the LDS church for about 18 months, and it wasn’t the policy when I left. I think it’s a very wise policy, though it would be even better if it applied equally to women as primary teachers. These days, a woman is also vulnerable to such accusations.
September 26th, 2007 @ 12:40 pm
I want Jooj to understand that people are people. How do I get that across without having the luxury of friends from different backgrounds?
Not to threadjack, but great question, La Ven! A number of ideas come to mind. For example, this weekend, I am participating in the annual Seattle AIDS Walk, to raise money for Lifelong AIDS Foundation, which serves a variety of needs for HIV positive and AIDS patients in the area. Most large cities hold similar events, and they can be a tremendous experience. Both straight and gay individuals participate in the walk. Aside from who might be holding who’s hand, they all look pretty much alike. It’s a moving experience, in a “safe” setting where you don’t have to be concerned about your child seeing things you don’t want him/her to see. A variety of community events provide similar exposure. For example, last year I participated in a GLBT country-western dance event at a prominent community venue. We had quite an “audience” of onlookers, many of whom were apparently straight, and many of whom actually applauded after some of our dancing. To me, it’s an opportunity to show people that I’m not much different from them–that we’re all just human beings, trying to do the best we can.
September 26th, 2007 @ 12:56 pm
Thank you for being so bravely open about your life, your struggles, and how you have handled all of it. I am sure that many lives will be positively impacted because of your honesty, your choices, and your example.
September 26th, 2007 @ 1:02 pm
Christian, how do you feel about Elder Oaks’ counsel (in the March 96 Liahona — in the Ensign, too, but I couldn’t immediately find the reference) to avoid using the label ‘gay’ but to rather refer to gay inclinations or tendencies?It doesn’t seem like that really caught on, and I’m curious why. Is it just because the label or identification of being gay is so pervasive? Or because the latter takes more effort, i.e. is wordier? (Like when we were counseled to say the whole name of the church rather than ‘LDS’ or ‘Mormon’ but nobody did, and then the church bought the mormon.org domain?)
September 26th, 2007 @ 1:04 pm
The following is an excerpt from Elder Holland’s article in the October Ensign:
“Let’s assume you are the family member or friend of someone with same-gender attraction who comes to you for help. What do you say? What do you do?
“I’d begin by recognizing the courage that brought your son, daughter, sibling, or friend to you. I’d recognize the trust that person has extended. Discussing the issue with someone of trust is a healthy first step to dealing with confusing feelings, and it is imperative that these first steps be met with compassion.
“Next, if you are a parent of one with same-gender attraction, don’t assume you are the reason for those feelings. No one, including the one struggling, should try to shoulder blame. Nor should anyone place blame on another—including God. Walk by faith, and help your loved one deal the best he or she can with this challenge….
“Above all, keep your lines of communication open. Open communication between parents and children is a clear expression of love, and pure love, generously expressed, can transform family ties. But love for a family member does not extend to condoning unrighteous behavior. Your children are welcome to stay in your home, of course, but you have every right to exclude from your dwelling any behavior that offends the Spirit of the Lord.”
I want to repeat what Elder Holland says:
“Love for a a family member does not extend to condoning unrighteous behavior.”
In other words, we love and care about our gay family members. Our disappointment in the choice to not keep covenants is not a betrayal of our love for them; rather, it shows how much we do love and care about them.
As Elder Holland states, “The desire for physical gratification does not authorize immorality by anyone. Such feelings can be powerful, but they are never so strong as to deprive anyone of the freedom to choose worthy conduct.”
September 26th, 2007 @ 1:06 pm
Here’s the link to Elder Holland’s talk: (hope this works)
September 26th, 2007 @ 1:26 pm
I think in this age of prejudicial legal quickspring action, we all would do well to be careful, and the church has done an excellent job safeguarding not only our children, but us as well — all of us.
Christian, I am glad to see you have been able to reconcile your testimony to your daily life. I think in so many ways we all have to do this. I was so saddened to read the Herald article and realize the isolation many must feel because of this life experience they are having. We so often choose to lash out at experiences that are outside of our own understanding.
I love that you state the gospel is inconvenient, but true. I find that’s true for a lot of our lives. This was a lovely tribute to a gospel that is still true, even if difficult.
September 26th, 2007 @ 1:29 pm
I was very pleased to see Jeffrey R. Holland’s comment about gay children being welcome in their parents’ homes. This stands in contrast to the comments of Dallin Oaks in his lds.org “interview,” wherein he suggests that if you have a gay child, you not allow your child’s partner to stay overnight in your home, and not acknowledge him/her socially.
As a message to gay LDS who wish to retain thier standing in the LDS church, my only concern about Holland’s message is this statement, similar to that found in the new pamphlet:
“Through the exercise of faith, individual effort, and reliance upon the power of the Atonement, some may overcome same-gender attraction in mortality and marry. Others, however, may never be free of same-gender attraction in this life.”
I wish that LDS leaders would realize the implications which this wording raises for many gay LDS members. It is very, very easy to infer from this statement that those who do not “overcome” their homosexuality haven’t exercised enough faith, put forth enough individual effort, or relied enough on the power of the Atonement. In short, these individuals can easily infer from the statement that they simply aren’t “good enough” in the eyes of deity. Those who have not experienced this turmoil have no idea how many gay LDS are crying themselves to sleep at night, fasting, praying, doing all they can, wishing for deity to change their orientation, without achieving that result. Messages like the above bring despair to such members–precisely the message Jeffrey R. Holland does not want to convey.
I have been acquainted with Jeffrey R. Holland, and I have great admiration for him. I’ve actually considered writing a heartfelt letter to him about my concerns over this choice of wording, but as I am no longer a member of the LDS church (by choice), I doubt it would accomplish much.
September 26th, 2007 @ 1:39 pm
Christian, I appreciate your willingness to share your story is such an open and heartfelt way. Occasionally I have walked out of a disscussion in which LDS people demonstrated ignorance or intolerance toward gay people, and in those situations I am always so sad. I think putting a face and a heart to the label of “homosexual” may begin to help people who should know better but don’t to exercise more love and compassion. I’m sure that this level of openeness has had a personal cost for you, and I thank you for your willingness to help “Perfect the Saints” through your own honesty and humility.
September 26th, 2007 @ 1:39 pm
Christian, could you tell us more about your commitment to stay in the church? Are you committed “come what may”? Or are you just “taking it a day at a time”?
I am interested because I believe staying in the church is hard for anyone and everyone. But it must be extra hard for you, and I’d like to know how you get the strength and what its like to stand against the wind all the time. Is it rewarding? Or just hard? What advice would you give to someone thinking of quitting? Thanks
September 26th, 2007 @ 1:46 pm
@Kel: I haven’t forgotten about you. I’m just doing my best to compose a thoughtful (and, admittedly, longish) reply.
September 26th, 2007 @ 1:58 pm
Nick, I think the implication here is that you are unique in your suffering. I can say however, with assurance, that I have found myself crying to sleep, fasting, praying, and doing all I can to change myself, only to find that I fail again. I feel isolated, alone in my suffering, never measuring up, always coming up short. The pain and isolation might be different, but the pain is still real.
I in no way belittle or disrespect your struggles because I too have struggles. It is calming to me to understand that the nature of each of our experiences here on earth is unique and different from others. I don’t have to have the same happiness or pains as my neighbors, for I certainly have happinesses and pains of my own.
All one can do in response to these pains is turn to the only one that can assuage that pain — the Savior.
I really respect you, Christian, for having eyes to see the greater perspective of your existence here. We can all struggle and grow together if we respect that each of us is under the private tutelage of the Lord.
September 26th, 2007 @ 2:01 pm
Christian, thank you for your bravery and example. I have an openly gay cousin who has left the church and who brings his partner to family activities. Although some family members do not approve of this, I am grateful for the opportunity that my children have of seeing and knowing someone who is different than them, and realizing that those who are different still deserve respect.
I sincerely appreciate this open line of communication and believe we all have a lot to learn and much to teach our children.
September 26th, 2007 @ 2:12 pm
Thank you for your courage. I have an LDS friend who recently “came out”. He, as you can imagine, is struggling greatly with his feelings, family, and membership in the church. Do you have any specific suggestions on how to help and support him during this defining time in his life?
September 26th, 2007 @ 2:12 pm
@Emily M: I think my reply (it’s coming!) to Kel should answer you, too.
@Nick: The companion teaching policy for men has been around for a number of years, but enforcement has been uneven. The new Handbook for leaders, though, which came out recently should help reinforce that companionship teaching is the expected route.
@Emily: I don’t much care for labels like “gay tendencies” or “same sex attracted” because they’re awkward, pretentious, and seem to carry with them some connotation of being diseased. I also dislike “struggle”. I’m gay: and I’m no more broken than the next guy. I’ve got more important things to work on — like charity, faith, temperance — than that.
@texasgal: My commitment to the Church is “come what may”. I have a testimony of the Gospel, and believe that the Church is what it claims to be… yes, being gay and Mormon is inconvenient — but the Gospel is engineered to foster joy, and I’ll find that joy in spades inside the church.
As for “standing against the wind”, I don’t see it that way at all. I have bad days, sure… but who doesn’t? And I think seeing our lot in life as harder or categorically different than others’ is counter-productive.
I have many many friends who have left the Church, and I believe there are consequences to doing so… but none of them left the Church lightly, so I do what I can to support and love them nonetheless. But should they ask, I would tell them that the walk is easier when it’s shared — and that the gospel is engineered to bring us happiness.
September 26th, 2007 @ 2:21 pm
@Anonymous 22: Love him the same… let him know he’s not alone — either literally, or in the sense of being a gay Mormon. Love him without condition, educate yourself about this issue, then answer question/offer advice with love and frankness .
I’ve been asked from time to time to fellowship gay men by this bishop or that, and my advice is pretty much the same, each time:
September 26th, 2007 @ 3:36 pm
You are courageous! And I was happy with the article as well. Well written!
September 26th, 2007 @ 4:05 pm
@Kel, Emily M:
“What would you suggest parents do and say for/to their child, regarding others’ or the child’s own attraction?”
It’s a big question… So big, in fact, that I hesitate to answer. But you asked, and as I have a few thoughts on the matter, I’ll share them.
Let me start by saying that orientation is a profoundly complex part of the human condition — and one that we may never fully understand in this life. Recent science, however, strongly suggests that biology (genetics and in-utero conditions in particular) plays a significant role. As such, orientation is likely to be affected by only the most traumatic of encounters. So, while what you say or do won’t likely likely have much impact on a child’s orientation — it may have profound consequences on how they view and treat themselves, others, and God.
My hope is that all children grow-up to know that they are literally children of a Heavenly Father who loves and values them — and that He wants them to become like Him; that their bodies are beautiful gifts from Him; and that desires for companionship are universal. Beyond this, I hope children grow-up to respect (not fear!) the beautiful and beguiling power of sex and sexual desire.
So with that, a couple words of advice:
Start with yourself… read the scientific literature (well, the explanations of the literature), read what the Brethren have and do say on the matter… and then remember that we’re _all_ still figuring this one out. Finally, if your child is queer, consider joining a group like PFLAG or similar group for parents of queer children… and pray for guidance.
If you have an underage child that thinks they may be gay, do not dismiss it as being a phase or something they’ll grow out of. Nothing shuts down dialog faster than declaring yourself closed for business. Talk to them about what it is that leads them to think they may be gay, and then listen listen listen. I love, for example, what my friend Samantha said once to her son Adam, when he asked if she thought he might be gay:
Adam: Mom, do you think I’m gay?
Samantha: Do you think you’re gay?
Adam: I don’t know.
Samantha: Well, it’s fairly easy to determine–when you’re with guys, do you look for the ones you think are cute?
Adam: No.
Samantha: If you think of kissing someone, is it a boy or a girl?
Adam: A girl.
Samantha: When you’re with girls, have you ever wanted to be closer to one of them, to hold her hand or touch her?
Adam: Well, yes, but it’s kind of embarrassing.
Samantha: I know, but have you ever felt that you wanted to be closer to a boy? to hold his hand or maybe kiss him?
Adam: I’m pretty sure I haven’t.
Samantha: Well, I’m pretty sure you’re not gay–however, should you decide you feel differently, I hope you’ll come talk to me about it.
Adam: Oh, I will.
(Samantha is a wonderful lesbian later-day saint in a mixed-orientation marriage… and she has an AMAZING and insightful series of posts on coming out to her children: Adam, DJ, Tabitha.)
Once the channels are open, you might want to talk about a few different things:
It’s Just a Phase
As I said before, I can’t imagine a more sure-fire way to close-down communication that to declare that something a child is interested in, fascinated by is “just a phase”. But that doesn’t mean it’s not. It’s important to remember that just because a guy has looked at another guy in the locker room doesn’t mean he’s gay. Idolization of one guy by another is also commonplace — especially if the object of the idolization is more “popular”, “strong”, or whatever than the one doing the idolization. Finally, I grew up with kids that had experimented with mutual masturbation — and then grew-up to be straight men. Because of this, it’s common for straight boys to have “gay” experiences… and as a parent, that’s really important to remember.
Dating
I think the advice to LDS youth on dating is inspired — and it holds-up for both straight and gay children, assuming that no one is under the delusion that straight dating will “cure” their children. But straight dating (after the age of 16, of course), is a wonderful place to learn all sorts of lessons about life and love and friendship… and for those children for whom “gay” experiences don’t equate to a gay reality, it’s a healthy place for them to be, period.
Sex
Members of the Church often fall into very “Catholic” approaches to sex and the body — avoiding the subjects entirely, and when broached, avoiding proper terminology and any language that would speak (to quote myself) to the “beautiful and beguiling” power of sex and sexual desire. And this, naturally, leads children to enter their adolescence in dangerous ignorance.
—
I could go on, but I think other questions in the thread will be useful in fleshing-out this topic.
September 26th, 2007 @ 5:16 pm
My heart is so full of admiration for all who have posted, and I am so grateful for these discussions! Though straight, the complexities of my life have granted me empathy for this subject. The thing that I wanted to add was to encourage Nick to write the letter to Elder Holland. Don’t assume that just because you aren’t in the church anymore that he won’t listen to you. Everything I know of him suggests otherwise.
Again, I have felt very uplifted by this post and comments, so thank you!
September 26th, 2007 @ 5:51 pm
Christian, I have so enjoyed your insights and hearing your faith and groundedness as you answer questions and teach us. Thank you for your choices and for sharing this in such a public forum.
September 26th, 2007 @ 5:54 pm
Wow. I applaud your bravery and courage. Not only for your choice that you make to live a celibate life, but more for staying true to what you know to be right. This might sound totally cheesy, but the picture that was forming in my mind while reading your article and responding comments was of Nephi’s description of holding to the rod. All of us who choose to grasp that rod are exposed to the mist of darkness that Nephi describes. I appluad you for holding tight to that rod, even through the mist. I know that you will be blessed for your faithfulness to God’s commandments.
Does that analogy make any sense at all? I know what I’m trying to say, but I’m not sure if it’s coming across the way I want it to…
Elder Holland’s talk was wonderful. I just read it yesterday, and I’m so glad that I found your article today. What an awesome example you are to all of us!
September 26th, 2007 @ 6:06 pm
To Christian re: labels like “same sex attraction” -
I feel the opposite from you on that issue. Referring to people as gay or lesbian has always sounded like a label to me, and “same sex attraction” feels to me like less of a generalization. I know that you don’t like those terms, but is it offensive to you if someone uses them? (Definitely agree with you regarding “tendencies” or “struggling,” though.)
September 26th, 2007 @ 6:24 pm
@Tiffani: you’re too kind. I do, though, understand your analogy.
@Cardine: Not at all offensive. Life is too short to take offense at such small trifles.
September 26th, 2007 @ 10:28 pm
Bravo, Christian. Yours is a beautiful mission here. Thank you for fulfilling it with (what to me seems like) your whole heart, might, mind, and strength.
September 26th, 2007 @ 10:49 pm
Thank you, Christian. I appreciate your answer to my question and Kel’s–my kids are small now, and I have always wondered how I would handle having a gay child. I appreciate your insights and your commitment to the Lord.
Thanks to the commenters as well, for keeping the tone of this discussion positive and uplifting.
September 27th, 2007 @ 4:12 pm
The idea from Justine (#20) was powerful for me. She is right in saying that we all have aspects to our personalities that we wish were different, and sometimes we can try with all of our hearts to change, but change isn’t always the will of the Lord.
I look up to Christian because he knows that change may not be in his immediate future, yet he continues to have faith, hope and joy.
I am also grateful for this discussion (and hope it will continue) because I have felt affirmations of gospel-centered charity. It feels good to cheer each other on in the battles that come our way. Let’s do more of it!
September 28th, 2007 @ 9:50 am
Here’s a question for you, Christian. As you come into contact with other gay LDS men, you no doubt find those who have come to believe that deity wants them to marry a woman and raise a family. I’ve seen two or three of these in the bloggernacle, in fact.
Given the chance to have a heartfelt talk with men in this situation, what would you tell them?
I sometimes wish I had just that opportunity, from my own past experience. Looking back, however, I don’t think my 21 year old self would have been willing to listen to what “he” needed to hear.
September 28th, 2007 @ 9:52 am
I should clarify with regard to #35. I’m talking about gay LDS men who are about to be married—not just those who think “someday” they should.
September 28th, 2007 @ 1:02 pm
A couple of beliefs come into play on this front: the belief that the daughters of God deserved to be loved fully; a belief that marriage is hard even in the best of circumstances; a belief that the social support that helped mixed-orientation marriages to survive — even thrive, for some — is gone; a belief that secrets kill marriages; a belief that orientation is complex; and a belief in personal revelation.
With that on the table, here’s how I would approach it:
First and foremost, I would expect that my friend will have been completely open with the girl — if that weren’t the case, I’d seriously consider telling her myself. That’s not an option I would take lightly. Beyond that, I’d tell the person that I think the choice he’s making is one that could have disastrous results, and that I hope that he’s certain of the promptings he’s received from the Spirit… and then I’d support his decision. I don’t know the workings of his heart or the depth of his commitment. Making sure that he’s been honest with her and praying he’s been honest with himself is the best I can do.
September 28th, 2007 @ 2:24 pm
Two things:
First, I am really enjoying this thread, and will continue to actively monitor it over the next few days for new comments and questions. But it occurs to me that there are some readers who may have questions they’re too shy to post. So I’m going to do something a little brave: I’m going to publish my e-mail address: christian dot harrison at gmail, in hopes that this discussion might help as many people as possible.
Second: It seems we somehow lost a few recent comments about dating.
It’s an important part of the discussion — germane not only to my experience as a faithful gay Latter-day Saint, but germane to the article in question. In them, someone (I don’t recall whom), asked how I approached dating, whether I thought it was a dangerous path, and what advice I received — if any — from my bishop.
I should start with a little background…
I had called this or that girl “my girlfriend” since I could walk, and had kissed a girl once on a dare in the playground during sixth grade… but those hardly count for much. No, my very first real date was to a lovely little Italian girl I met boogie-boarding at a beach in Los Angeles. I was 14 or 15. My sister drove us to see Back to the Future, and her burly older brother chaperoned.
Through high school, I didn’t date much. I loved youth activities, sure, and was a regular at scout camp, stake dances, road shows, and school dances. But my only dates were to a prom or two — once with the bishop’s daughter. Funny thing, of course, is that this was a dream-come-true for my youth leaders, who were (rightly) concerned about dating and all its baggage.
After high school, I moved to California to earn money for my mission. At one point, I almost moved-in with a girl… but was told that living with a girl might pose a problem for the bishop. It hadn’t occurred to me that living with a girl would raise any flags as I prepared my papers. So I was thankful for the heads-up.
After returning from two years in the Canada Montréal Mission, I moved to Provo to attend the Y. I went on many first dates… but only a dozen or so seconds… a half-dozen thirds.
An aside: I lived in V-Hall in the Deseret Towers my first summer, then a number of us moved down the hill to the Glennwood, where six of us shared an apartment. My second year there, I had an amazing roommate that caught my heart, and I failed to keep my crush a secret. A rumor swept the ward that I was gay. One evening, a roommate approached me and confided that he didn’t believe I was gay — and that he’d told my other roommates as much — because I dated more than all of them! I didn’t have the heart to tell him that it was true.
Anyway, even though I came out to myself and one or two others at the age of 23 and continued down the road to full disclosure, I thought in my heart of hearts that if I dated enough, I’d eventually find “the one”.
I finally decided that I should try going out with a guy.
And you know what? Those sappy songs that I thought were insipid fictions for thirty years? They’re really on to something! Dating someone you like makes all the difference in the world… and now I just date guys. I date for fun… and for companionship… for the few sparkling hours in a week when I can pour myself into another person’s world. And I date to learn. I’ve learned more about the human condition — about love and life — dating guys than I ever thought possible twirling my fork in a plate of fettuccine with a gal opposite me. It’s a lot of fun, and I love coming home and sharing it all with my Heavenly Father.
As far as the law of chastity — well, if a straight boy can keep it, so can I. It starts, of course, with knowing my boundaries and my date honoring them. It means probably not kissing on the first date… and it means keeping dating casual.
When I told my bishop that I was gay I also told him that I dated guys. He didn’t bat an eye. Instead, he cautioned me to “not let my homosexuality become an excuse to be promiscuous”.
So there you go.
September 29th, 2007 @ 6:13 am
Christian– Thank you for bringing back the parts of this discussion that were important for you.
This is a personal question, please don’t feel obligated to answer…
What parts of the gospel have brought you the most peace as you’ve come to terms with being gay and Mormon?
September 29th, 2007 @ 9:18 am
Not too personal at all…
That God loves me. Dearly.
That a prophet leads us today.
That additional light and knowledge is promised on all things.
That the Gospel is engineered to bring us joy — in this life and the next.
That I may rely on the promptings of the Spirit — who teaches me patience, love, cheerfulness, perspective, faith, and duty.
September 29th, 2007 @ 10:00 pm
Don’t you find it heartbreaking to date with no prospect of ever getting married? What would you do if you fell madly in love with a guy and wanted to spend your life together? Its sounds painful. Also, do you date guys that are antagonistic towards the church? Do you only ask out people you are certain are gay? In the eyes of the church is it okay for gay guys to hold hands and kiss, etc the same way straight daters can? Do you bring your gay guy friends to social events, or just go out by yourselves? Do you think there will ever be an ordinary church dance where two perfectly chaste gay guys could dance together and it wouldn’t be a big deal? Could that happen? Should it happen?
Does it offend you when people speculate that maybe in the next life you will be straight?
Sorry so many questions, you are just so darn interesting. You must have dwelt on these matters a lot and are kind to share your thoughts.
September 30th, 2007 @ 4:08 pm
Wow, anon: you’ve got a lot of questions!
Don’t you find it heartbreaking to date with no prospect of ever getting married? What would you do if you fell madly in love with a guy and wanted to spend your life together?
It’s hard, but not overwhelming… and it’s only a few minutes at a time on days that would get anyone down. In the end, I revel in the happiness I find. Isn’t that what we all do?
Also, do you date guys that are antagonistic towards the church?
I’ve dated men in the past who were antagonistic… but I would prefer to find others like me. Or maybe some good Catholic man.
Do you only ask out people you are certain are gay?
As far as I know.
I’ve got pretty good gaydar.
In the eyes of the church is it okay for gay guys to hold hands and kiss, etc the same way straight daters can?
I would have to say “no”. Or “not entirely”. Or maybe even “not yet”… I have no delusions of being in the mainstream on the dating thing.
Do you bring your gay guy friends to social events, or just go out by yourselves?
I’ve never brought a date — straight or gay — to a social event (not counting the prom). It’s just not my way of dating.
Do you think there will ever be an ordinary church dance where two perfectly chaste gay guys could dance together and it wouldn’t be a big deal? Could that happen? Should it happen?
I think youth should stick to straight dating. Young adult dances on the other hand? I think it could happen… and I think it may. But I don’t know.
Does it offend you when people speculate that maybe in the next life you will be straight?
Daniel Holsinger (my friend from FHEfamily) and I disagree on this point: he believes firmly that “gay” and “straight” are morally equivalent — while I believe that the evidence points to the yin/yang of straight coupling being the eternal way of things. So while I’m not offended, I’m a little bewildered… but bewildered like a ten-year-old who can’t imagine a time in his life when he won’t play with Legos — it’s not that it won’t happen, just that I don’t have the imagination necessary to envision it.
Sorry so many questions, you are just so darn interesting. You must have dwelt on these matters a lot and are kind to share your thoughts.
Thank you.
You’re too kind.
September 30th, 2007 @ 11:20 pm
Well, everyone… it’s been an absolutely delightful turn, here at Segullah, and I want to thank my hosts for making this possible. I know this is a little outside their comfort zone, and I appreciate their accommodation. I hope they — and you! — have found value in our little dialog.
I certainly have.
I’ll keep vigil through tomorrow, and then I’ll invite the editors to close comments to keep the shenanigans to a minimum.
Of course, there’s always e-mail… I’ve already received a number of e-mails, and very much look forward to others.
So Monday is our last day together. If you’d like to contribute to the dialog, now’s your last chance.
And now, well, now I’m off to bed… here’s to cool sheets and gossamer dreams.
October 2nd, 2007 @ 9:49 am
Comments have been closed on this post at Christian’s request (He no longer can monitor it closely). Please email him with further questions. Thank you all.