2. No insults. Please critique the argument, not the person.

I know that this conversation has often spiraled into a “who suffers” more debate–and I in no way want to continue that. I feel that suffering is just a big part of life and growth….end of story. To say whether the celiabte gay or the illness stricken woman or the wronged wife is the greatest sufferer is not only silly, but pointless.

Far it be it for me to suggest to anyone how they should live, I make numerous mistakes DAILY, but if I had to sum up my whole opinion about this topic it would be very similar to Emily’s idea–its this: Try to be honest. With yourself and others….because in the end, thats what you would want. Do unto others…… if you find yourself struggling with feelings like these-be honest–if you are going to get married, talk to your “potential spouse” and make sure she/he understands the risks and they are making a clear honest choice, if you honestly can’t get married, then –and this brings us back to Christian–then maybe the most honest choice is to be celibate–I just think reducing suffering begins with honesty….to yourself and others. In the end, regardless, we will always have to suffer, a little, alot, more than others, less than others, who knows–who can honestly say….I love, LOVE this scripture from John: “In this world ye shall have tribulation, but be of good cheer, for I have overcome the world.”

I am sorry if I’ve ever seemed insensitive to others suffering and have allowed mine to cloud my capacity to see it in others. I love that scripture because it is an amazingly simple and beautiful invitation to see each other as equals before the love of Christ and for all of us, universally, to lay down our burdens and come to Him.

Thanks again for all the amazing conversations!

Nathan

It worked out well for Joe; it doesn’t work so well for others. A dear friend of mine recently experienced a divorce after finding out her husband was gay. And she’s been devastated. She’s still healing, I think. It will take years for her to work through this. I can’t fault her for not being a “Joe’s wife.” I tend to be more upset with her ex-husband, for not being honest with her, for lying to her when she asked him point-blank before they got married, if he was gay.

I know it’s hard to be LDS and gay; I realize that I don’t begin to understand the challenges involved. I have to say, though, that being gay and LDS and suffering doesn’t make it okay when you lie to those you’re supposed to be most honest with. Some people like Kim and Joe’s ex-wife can find it in them to forgive and heal, and I admire them. But their ability to forgive doesn’t mean that they weren’t deeply, profoundly wounded.

On this topic, I’ve enjoyed the blogging at http://ldslights.org/. I like their commitment to the gospel combined with their desire to explore the real issues of same-gender attraction.

PS I’m amazed at how long this dialogue has gone on….

What a great story about everyone involved learning to love and respect each other and thereby learning that things are not always what they seem. I, of course speak, of Joe himself for realizing that his life could be full, valuable and joyful when he had belived otherwise. It sounds like he chose to love and it sounds like his family chose to love despite the fact that things were difficult, painful and I am sure very confusing at times. I love this story because it illustrates, rather idyllically I might say, how powerful love can be when we let it guide our actions instead of our desire to be right or make sense of a situation using only what we know…or think we know. Love is the power, y’all. Love is the power. =) (Moroni 7)

Although I’m a man, and this discussion group is intended to be for women, I’d like to share a story related to the topic at hand, if I may – a story that warms my heart.

I have a good friend – we’ll call him Joe – who came to a point in his life where he began to feel overwhelming dispair. His marriage of many years was deeply troubled and unhappy. Joe and his wife were considering divorce as a last option to at least not be so miserable. Joe was gay but had always kept his temple covenants.

After Joe and his wife were divorced, Joe felt some degree of relief yet was not at all happy, and imagined that the only future he could look forward to would be a life of shame, lonliness, and grim endurance. He and his wife had five children, and Joe wondered if the children would ever be able to love him – much less respect him. Things seemed bleak.

Then someone came into Joe’s life – a man who, it turned out, truly loved Joe. Soon, Joe began to rediscover all the beauty, contentment, and excitement of life. His depression fled, his health and energy improved, and he began to excell in his profession; soon he was promoted to head up his department at work, where he accomplished important and lasting improvements to nearly everything he touched. His productivity was phenomenal, and he became admired by his colleagues.

Because Joe had Canadian Citizenship, he and his man eventually became legally married. Joe’s five children – and even his ex-wife – all became interested in spending time him; he was immensely happy, and he had an incredible sense of humor. Joe and his husband and his ex-wife organized numerous family events, and even sometimes vacationed together. Yes, I suppose that would seem wierd, but for this extended family, these family gatherings were happy times. I think they all must have sensed that they were seeing their father at his best.

Joe’s son was getting ready to go on his mission, and received his mission call to Belgium. The summer before he left for his mission, Joe’s son and Joe’s husband took on a major home improvement project together: they ripped out the entire kitchen in the family house and spent the summer together building all the new cabinets, drawers, and shelves. It turned out beautifully, and was a strong bonding experience for both of them. Then Joe junior left for his two years in Belgium, which Joe and Husband paid for.

This is only one of many, many stories I could tell about my friend Joe and his family, but it suffices to say that Joe’s children love their “step-father” nearly as much as they love their own, and he loves them back. He tells me getting married to Joe has been more wonderful, rewarding, and fulfilling than he ever could have imagined.

A while back, I attended a surprise birthday party for Joe, organized and put on by Joe’s husband, all five children, and Joe’s former wife. The house was filled with people, including the Bishop and his wife; and under Joe’s husband’s direction, the five children put on a little show with skits, stories, and memories in honor of their father, who they will always, always love. It was a memorable, loving, family-values experience. Joe’s former wife had a place of honor there, but preferred to enjoy the celebration without taking on a speaking part.

When I think of “gay marriage,” Joe is who I think of. When I hear my fellow Latter-day Saints extoll the virtues of celibacy for gay people, I think, “Perhaps if they had known Joe, they might feel somewhat inclined to examine their certainty a little more closely.