I just finished watching the PBS Documentary “The Mormons.” I think that it is our duty as Mormon bloggers to post about it. I say duty and I MEAN DUTY.
I liked it. When presented with both sides of the story, I can confidently take my side and move on (Fast and Testimony meeting and all.) I like listening to those in opposition as well as support, it gives me a choice (I heart choices). Most people I know feel empowerment watching the movies at the Legacy Theater, my testimony is strengthened more by listening to this expose on Mormonism. I say that unapologetically though my husband has a role in the movie now showing.
After seeing the faults of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, as well as present day leaders like Elder Packer, I am glad to know that I am a member of a church of imperfect saints. Real people who struggle with understanding immortality while being absolutely mortal. I also feel empathy for those featured in the documentary who want to be upstanding members of the church, but feel personally conflicted based on church standards.
Mormonism isn’t easy for anybody to live. I think our personal conflicts are what make us good Mormons. I’d like to think that most of us struggle while choosing to endure. That some of us have questions about our history. Or feminism. Or the temple experience. At the very least, this means we are thinking Mormons, who try to understand ourselves while building a personal relationship with our Savior.
Last summer I was overwhelmed at having several callings and getting ready for Girls Camp mixed with all the stress of everyday life. I felt as though I had earned the right to let something go. And so it was that I marched over to my relief society president’s house and kindly asked to be on non-active visiting teaching duty until I could regain my emotional state. I was empowered with this feeling that I was taking a stand.
The next Sunday our bishop talked from the pulpit about what it means to be a member in this church. We are visiting teachers, home teachers, we have callings (some of us several callings) we are parents, wives, husbands, employees, neighbors. And it is hard work for all of us. This is the sacrifice we committed when we were baptized. His point enveloped my pride. I called the president back and told her to give me a new route, only this time could I have an active companion who could help me carry the responsibility?
Who are Mormons? We are intellectual, lazy, depressed, infertile, insecure, frustrated, tired, unhappy and bordering crazy. We know death, hardship and fear. We struggle with self-mastery every day of our lives. At some point we all have to learn to live with these states of being, while considering the doctrine of Jesus Christ as contained in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. At some point, we must realize that this is the point.
And in the spirit of accepting ourselves as Mormons of variety, I’d like to say that I am a once-divorced woman, who is now on her second marriage to an actor-by-profession, who also has not yet been able to conceive and doesn’t feel the need to do so using common infertility techniques and who ditched out on mutual tonight because she wanted to watch the documentary without having to record it. And I am a Mormon.
What kind of Mormon are you?
I am the kind that loves the fervor of our early church, who accepts our history warts and all, and who revels in our strangeness. I am also the kind that refuses to vote Republican.
Well, this about to be Mormon (my day is coming soon!) is no where near perfect. I’m an above knee skirts wearing, sometimes tank top sporting, used to take shots of alcohol, and walk home drunk laughing kind of girl.
But I am at peace with who I am, and okay with the life CHANGE that joining church will be. I look at each day as a chance for me to really work on growing closer to HF.
We are imperfect, and that is okay. It is actually good. Otherwise it would be boring and we’d have nothing to talk about, and wouldn’t that be a shame?!?
I wish I could of watched the program, but finals are coming up and I am over my head with academic (achk) work. However, I am happy that other saints are finding it okay, even good.
xoxo
Katie
To me it seemed as though the first night was a little heavy handed in the criticism and the second night tried to be more favorable.
What it all boils down to is either the church is true 100% or it is false. It is not a buffet to pick and choose which parts of the doctrine suits you best [even if you don't like your spinich (polygamy) or brussel sprouts (history of blacks and the priesthood)]. Do you honestly have to understand all things (every facet) in order to beleive it before you accept it? It is a demanding religion. I struggle with all my duties on a regular basis. I’ve struggled with home teaching and other church callings. I’ve struggled with my role as the priesthood holder in my family. In spite of all this, it brings me my greatest joys and happiness.
It was asked last night if the church could survive the 21st century. Not only will it survive, but it will flourish until it fills the earth, with or without you and I in the process.
hmmm … i did like pieces of it and i do think its important to show both sides however i did find myself arguing (yes i was arguing with the TV at 10pm) with the one woman who kept talking about how its unfair that men have the priesthood … i just wish that people would understand, and cherish, that being a woman in the church is super empowering and that even though we do not hold the priesthood we reap the blessings of it daily! and there is nothing more important in the church than the mother who will raise the next generation of children … whether they are your own or helping others (primary)
I also loved the section where they talked about how we should revel in the fact that we are different and that people do point fingers at us and that is a good thing … we should stand out as a choice people, and live in the world but not of the world
Im interested to see if any of my co workers saw it … im sure the questions will come :0)
I really liked it too. I think we are pretty strange — and that’s ok with me. The only wish I had was that the people talking were more clearly referenced.
But taken as a whole, the church, warts and all, is still true. That’s just the bottom line! And I just can’t take issue with people bringing up things about the church’s history and current mores that are true!
It’s true that the Mormon Meadows Massacre happened. It’s true that we practiced polygamy. It’s true that it’s challenging to be gay in this church. It’s true that if you try to say women should have the priesthood, you’ll likely be ex’ed.
I actually walked away wondering why more churches don’t try harder to control their message. When they pointed out how our church is largely unique in this, it was a bit of a shocking realization. Our church — any church — has a responsibility to control the content of their doctrine and message otherwise that church could not possibly claim any authority from God. Their authority would clearly rest with the masses.
Too many great things to discuss!
I only saw the first night of the documentary, which was a little harsh. I do like that they talked about everything though. Not just the perfect, perfect, we are so perfect, of the church. Because we aren’t. I like hearing all sides of the story. I don’t think it’s bad to show the downfalls of some of the people in our church. People are not perfect. I think it’s necessary to show the struggles people have gone through. If we left things out just because they didn’t look perfect, I would feel like that would be deceitful. I know the church is true and it is a perfect gospel, but the people are not perfect, and that’s ok. We cannot expect them to be.
And by the way, you missed a fabulous dinner last night. The youth were quite well behaved.(for the most part)
The Church of Jesus Christ is just that. This is His church and as far as I’m concerned He was left out of the whole equation. Sure we have a past and a colorful history and that’s just fine to disect it. But this documentary did just what every anti-Mormon documentary does, it leaves out the principal player, Jesus Christ and dwells on Joseph Smith and Brigham Young and all their weirdness. Was the atonement mentioned? Did anyone really bare a testimony to the divinity of God the Father and His Son? These elements of our church are sacred. The whole church is sacred because it is Christ’s church. I’m always uncomfortable when non-members and exed members try to rationalize it all away. It was not a complete look at our church and what really is our message to the world–Jesus is the Christ–Forgive one another and Love one another. Did anyone get that message?
This is such a great post! All too often it feels as though the members of the church are almost competing to be the “most perfect”. It’s nice for me to hear people admitting/accepting that the members of the church (including ourselves) are not perfect, and I’m sure it’s nice for investigators to hear as well. I was raised in the church and sometimes it’s hard for me to deal with the “perfect person” attitude, imagine what it must be like for someone who is thinking about joining the church. I mostly base this on the fact that my ex-husband was investigating the church and I think (he never actually verbalized this) that he was scared away because he knew he’d never be able to do all the things he thought were absolutely necessary. Now, I’m not saying that all those things he thought were necessary aren’t things we strive for, but I think he felt if he couldn’t do them all perfectly he couldn’t be a member of the church. There are so many things, in hindsight, that I wish I could go back and tell him.
Here’s the member I am: I smoke and I’m inactive. Of course I want to correct my problems (that’s only the two most noticeable), but they are my imperfections and they don’t stop me from believing 100% in the truth of the gospel. They don’t stop me from knowing that WITH the gospel and God’s help I will eventually be able to correct my imperfections. It doesn’t work the other way around…I can’t correct my imperfections and then start trusting in God and His gospel…believe me, I tried that.
Thanks for this wonderful, thought-provoking post.
I am the kind of Mormon who yearns to break free from the cookie-cutter mold of Mormon culture and yet still be an active, dedicated member. (I am also the kind of Mormon who appreciates people like CJane who express so perfectly the feelings of my heart! Very well said, as usual.)
p.s. Alyson…great response. It made me tear up.
Here’s the Mormon that I am: disillusioned. I wish so badly that what I saw in the movie Legacy, and what I learned in Sunday School would not have been so different from what was presented in the documentary and our real church history. I felt a little duped (just being honest) when I started reading church history on my own (legit sources, not anti). It was devastating. I admire those of you (Courtney) that can wrap your head around it, and come out solid in the gospel. I sincerely do. There is so much that I love about the LDS Church, and I’m not angry — just sad. How do I pass something on to my children that has so many shades of gray for me? And it is not a ‘lifestyle’ thing. I’m about as Molly Mo as they come. For this reason, I refuse to be put in the “box” of stepping away because I prefer to live some swingin’ lifestyle. My spirituality is very important to me. And polygamy (very big deal to me), blacks and the priesthood, gays, women and the priesthood, historical issues— well, I’m disillusioned. I’m also inspired and honor others faithfulness. Courtney thanks for sharing your views here. I was wondering if you watched the documentary. Your faithfulness and open-ness is inspiring. So glad to know you (at least through the blog world!)
Councilwoman, I love what you bring up. I often feel that the Gospel is the best kept secret in the church. Sometimes I feel like I have to work really hard to put the Savior into my Young Women’s lessons, when shouldn’t it be the other way around, that I can’t help but include Him? I wish we could live more like the Nephites in 2 Nephi 25:26 who “talk of Christ, rejoice in Christ, preach of Christ, prophesy of Christ…” because sometimes I worry that my young women, and my children will wonder “to what source they should look for a remission of their sins,” even as active members of the church. I think too often we find ourselves, or at least I find myself, sitting up in the “branches” of the church tree and realizing that they’re not connected to the deepest roots, i.e. the Atonement of Christ.
I found the show interesting and worthy of discussing. It brings up issues we all need to discuss with our families. I watched it with my teens and talked about the issues. The good and the bad.
Can I ask something of those of you who are upset about church history? If you were catholic, would you be as upset about the catholics very long, violent past? Or any dozens of other religions with not so clear pasts. Seems that we as Mormons want to hold our past to a higher standard. Can we? Is it fair? There are no religions without some controversy in the past. I feel that the past can be learned from, but not dwelt on. How about those from the south? Are you beating your breast and wailing about the past? Slavery is wrong, evil, but we endure, we move on. We learn and change. And thank goodness we can change, that we can learn and grow and not be stuck there. I look at history, ALL history, and I hope and pray that we remember and don’t repeat it.
What kind of mormon am I? I am a convert. I am not always the best example. I confess to liking to eat out on Sunday. (a holdover from my upbringing when a bunch of us would go out with the pastor after church) I do question, and I teach my kids that freedom comes from making the choices that Heavenly Father wants. I also teach them to question and to listen. That there shouldn’t be blind obedience.
You know what’s so great about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints? It is the consistancy that I know our Heaven Father has… God is never changing and will always have prophets and constant revelation to those who will listen. Key word– LISTEN. It gives us the order that we need in our lives. And yes, there are rules, but we have a choice in whether we choose to follow them. And this is what’s so great.
Another thing I would like to say is that people are not what define a religion… a religion is what defines people, or atleast steers them in a certain way… again those rules are evident. We cannot base our faith on other people’s actions. Although I believe it is important to know the history of how a religion was started and the ongoing happenings, it really comes down to whether it’s God’s church or not. Is it or isn’t it? It cannot be both. We must get down on our knees and pray with an open mind and heart.
I totally agree with the councilwoman. You’re right - and I think that’s also part of the unease I felt after watching night one of the special.
Did anyone notice the creepy Joseph painting they kept showing…or some of the other eerie music/images?
I learned from this special - didn’t know and couldn’t get anyone to explain to me about Mountain Meadows - I get it now. I have to say that being a Mormon back then - was a CHALLENGE. I don’t know if I could’ve done it.
But that’s part of being Mormon - we are a bit of a contradiction. On the one hand we want to be accepted and understood - but we want to be “peculiar” too. They hit that on the nail.
My Dad always told me - the gospel is true and perfect. People… aren’t perfect - there are good and bad people in and out of the Church… so unless we have our own testimony of God and his eternal truth…we won’t be able to be a part of this Church.
I really enjoyed seeing my former BYU Bishopric counselor Dan Peterson on the show. He’s a man who embodies humor and lively discussion. I also enjoyed the comments from those that had been excommunicated and still loved the gospel and what it stands for.
I also liked how that one lady explained excommunication as a violent act. I had never thought of it that way - but it is… you are ripped from those sacred sealings. Sometimes we get so comfortable in our religion we don’t get how binding and important the covenants we make are.
Courtney is exactly right about the fact that as mormons we span the spectrum. We are individuals after all. I wish we could all accept that. If we did I think we’d be better at practicing what we’re taught. That we would embrace and include those that don’t fit the “norm” in mormon culture. I’ve always been friends with the wonderful ladies that were divorced. What made me sad/bothered was the way they weren’t included by people who used to be their friends when they were married. We as members CAN do more to include those that are single, divorced and struggling with their own identities. In this aspect… the gospel is right about inclusion…we the people need to take that and put it into action.
This is so long…sorry. Also they mentioned anti-depressant usage in Utah…my brother took sociology and they had a study that said that it isn’t exclusive to mormon women - though it is high…it just is high in the mountain region… they can’t figure out if it’s the altitude… so I wished that was better represented in the show.
“And polygamy (very big deal to me), blacks and the priesthood, gays, women and the priesthood, historical issues— well, I’m disillusioned.”
Chelle, I just want you to know that polygamy (as contained in the Doctrine & Covenants) is a very big deal to me, too. I don’t get it. I NEVER want to be apart of it, not now and not in the eternities. I’m even offended/injured when well-meaning people have tried to reason with me and tell me various reasons why it had to be. To me, God is a god of miracles, so he could have used some other way to get a lot of Mormon babies, etc.
BUT, those people who practiced polygamy when they were told to by God, built the Church, built temples, built families that continue to yield individuals in the Church who do great things for me and for Heavenly Father. I don’t understand how something that seems so divisive to me could have yielded such positive results. But, I exercise my own faith to say, “I don’t understand or even like how they built, but I will keep building.” I cannot command God any more than Joseph Smith could. For some mysterious reason(s), God has instituted that practice more than once in the history of world.
I feel at peace that it’s not required for exaltation and that my marriage is and will always be Celestial as long as I honor my covenants by trying to be a good person and by axcessing the Atonement often.
I feel assured that Jesus Christ stands at the Head of this Church and for me that’s the beginning and the end.
I think the one thing that bothered me is that they portrayed members of the church as being unable to question anything about the church without facing some form of discipline. I think we are encouraged to question it and to find out for ourselves if it is true or not. Isn’t that how we are taught from Sunbeams on to gain a testimony of our own? You study, you pray, you attend church, you ask questions, and you gain your very own testimony. I am the type of Mormon who found out for myself (not without trials) that it is true and I hope I can raise my children to do the same — not blind obedience but educating themselves and being converted to the gospel.
Also, I have found that the gospel and the church work for me. I don’t worry about the issues of the past or the “weirdness” (as others see it). I absolutely cannot live my life or raise my children without the gospel, without the teachings and doctrine of the church, and without my testimony of the Savior. Honestly, I don’t know how other people do it without these things.
First off, Councilwoman: “The Church of Jesus Christ is just that. This is His church and as far as I’m concerned He was left out of the whole equation.” Well said!
This next part is all coming from a mormon girl born and raised in the church, a little liberal in her views and a dead head at heart-
I have been pondering my testimony and what the church and the gospel means to me in my life since my husband left the church 4 years ago. It’s been a huge struggle for me to maintain my conviction in things I know I should be doing when I don’t have the support from my significant other (I try not to put the blame on him, because I know it all has to do with me, but sometimes it’s so convenient too)… Needless to say, going to churh every Sunday with two screaming kids in tow is quite the challenge, although I try. I don’t read my scriptures, and I don’t pray everyday. I know I need to be set a better example for my family… but darn it all, it’s so EASY to let the rhythms of everyday life take over. But what I do do is teach my children about their Heavenly Father and his son Jesus Christ, we pray when I remember too, and we sing lots of primary songs. I also teach my kids to be kind, grateful, honest, compassionate, etc.
I’ve never been the kind of mormon girl who enjoyed going to ward activities, wished to go to EFY, strived to attend BYU, prayed about every decision in my life, etc. I didn’t grow up with fathers blessings, family home evening, family scripture reading, etc. But I never worried that people would think of me as “not righteous enough” or for not being “the perfect mormon girl” in fact, I guess I just didn’t care… and if they did, well that’s that, it is what it is. I take the gospel for what it means to me and not what my appearence in the church means to others. I know in my deepest heart of hearts that the gospel is true. I know my Heavenly Father wants me to strive to be better and more committed to his gospel, and I’m trying which is all I can do.
Since my husband left the church, I have really had to take a look at what my place is in this church. What kind of example am I setting? What can I be doing differently? I KNOW I can be doing better by adhearing to all that is asked of us as Church members, but I have to remember that I’m not perfect and I am okay with not being perfect. It’s one step at a time.
It doesn’t matter what that program could have said last night (although I thought it was a little biased), it did not make me think twice about my faith. I am grounded in my belief in the Gospel of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I struggle with the human/physical side of things, but on the spiritual side, it’s true, and nobody can convince me otherwise. It sets guidelines (as any organized religion does) and makes it possible for us to be better people, period, and I think that’s Wonderful!
I was disappointed that it didnt talk about anything spiritual- take that away and we may sound a little strange- but we are more then fact and history. I was sad that that didnt come out more.
I liked the program for the most part. I had a few problems with some of the presentation, such as someone saying that Joseph Smith is the Alpha and Omega of the church - that’s not true. The Alpha and Omega is Jesus Christ. Anyway, besides some of those errors, it was interesting to see the different points of view of the people they interviewed.
I felt like we only got one perspective in some of the areas, and I would actually be interested to watch the uncut interviews of each of the people. I feel like we hardly got to hear from some of them.
Also, I think some parts were illustrated according to how they wanted to paint the church. For example, amidst all of the talk of the church’s alienation from the government, they didn’t even remotely mention that the church sent men to fight in the war for the government at the time.
But, I still thought it was good and interesting. I was glad that I watched it.
And I think the church has always been tainted by the behavior of its members. I mean, Judas (one of the apostles!) betrayed Jesus Christ. If that isn’t some shady history, then I don’t know what is! And that Moses and his drowning Pharoah’s army in the Red Sea! Shady.
I am a Mormon who has made my share of bad choices, and paid the consequences. I can honestly say that the church courts are full of love and concern for the offenders’well being and journey on the road of repentance. I have known the sorrow for sin that Alma speaks of in the Book of Mormon, and I have also known the peace and joy of redemption. I don’t completely understand the Atonement, (do any of us?) but I love my savior and I am forever thankful for His sacrifice.
I agree that the documetary did not cover the true core of the doctrine….Repentance and Redemption.
I am the kind of Mormon who appreciates truth. I have no problem with people expressing conflicting points-of-view, but it bothers me when bias is presented as fact (even LDS bias). It also irritates me when people get their facts wrong. At the beginning of the program they said that Joseph Smith was the “Alfa and Omega” of our religion. No,he’s not. It’s those kind of details that perpetuate misunderstanding. (Like when people call us the “Church of the Latter-day Saints).
[...] Segullah the Blog The PBS Follow Up [...]
anyone who has studied other religions, or the history of world, for that matter, should know that nothing about the mormons history is “weird” or shameful. in anthropology 101 you would learn that monogamous family units is the exception, not the rule, in history. that temple worship has always existed. that man is mortal, and even the greatest characters in history were prone to weakness and folly, religion aside. to use our current cultural norms to define the “weirdness” of god’s commands is ridiculous. to use our mortal brains to say we know the way god should work- whether he should test a people by giving them a dark skin, whether he should choose to be highly symbolic in his teachings and temple, whether he would desire his men to govern and the women to be the counselors- is preposterous. to challenge what the god of the universe has revealed after one has already had a witness of its truth only shows faithlessness and weakness and arrogance. i am the kind of mormon who struggles to not judge those mormons who fancy themselves as smart as god and who doubt.
What I think so many people are missing is the fact that in any story of history there are two sides. Any LDS member who is shocked and surprised by the fact that there were indeed people who hated the early church leaders and accused them of awful things hasn’t done any personal study on the matter. Historical account of any kind is in the eyes of the beholder. While some viewed J.S. as a shady womanizer- others saw him as an inspired leader called of God. Which opinion is correct?
As we watched those movies growing up of the restoration, did we really believe those men were perfect? And if we did….why? We weren’t ever told that they were. There has only been one perfect man in this world, and countless critics have found ways to demean even His character and call Him a fraud.
I, too, was disappointed that the cornerstone of our religion was completely left out of the documentary.
CJane–
Thank you. I’m struggling with some of the issues you mentioned and more, but I’m still here. I’m thinking. I’m feeling. I’m working. And I’m a Mormon.
I love that we are allowed to be imperfect and still be saints.
You explicated that concept beautifully.
you rock.
i have been thinking a lot about the documentary, although didn’t see part II.
I love the way you summarized a lot of thoughts I have had this week (even our leaders are HUMAN and make mistakes- big and small). The idea to the religion I didn’t catch in the first section did not talk a lot about the doctrine, which disappointed me. That’s the part that is either true or false.
As for what kind of Mormon I am- I am a convert. I am a rated r watching, caffeine drinking, swearing on my blog imperfect person a little further away from being like Christ than I wish I was. Changing that is a process and a beloved journey all my own.
I chose not to watch the doc for two reasons:
1. Waking the Dead was on
2. I have enough to think about this week and didn’t want to have to put more things in my head.
And that is the kind of TV Watcher I am–lazy and devoted to BBCAmerica.
As far as what kind of Mormon I am, I am a practicing Mormon. I know that Jesus is the Christ, and have absolutely no doubt that Joseph Smith restored His gospel. I love crock pot dinners with very little flavor, and I don’t want fake nails. I have had one perm, and I try to have Family Home Evening, although mostly I just show Jooj a picture of the temple and we sing a song. I don’t pick and choose prophetic counsel to follow, and I don’t get bothered by past issues. I know I have been blessed with a copious amount of faith–I have never had to “believe,” I have always “known.” I don’t really enjoy object lessons, but I try to have a tablecloth when I teach on Sundays. I love being a part of the Relief Society and think that, next to the atonement, it is just about the best thing in my life. I have never talked to someone on an airplane about the gospel, although I completely screwed it when I was asked by a flight attendant why God let Saddam live, when he had Nephi kill Laban (my answer: I don’t know.) I secretly hope that they goofed up and bought Hawaiian Bread every Sunday for the sacrament, and drink water even when it is Fast Sunday so that I don’t throw up. I dread being called to the Primary, and I love the youth, even though they drive me nuts. I treasure the fact that I am sealed to my family for time and all eternity, and I don’t pronounce it “traysure.” I like doing my family history, but not house keeping. And I still call it “Homemaking” half of the time, and wish that they would bring back the “Merrie Miss” and “Star A’s.”
I only got to see the last part on Monday night (the tail end of the Meadow Massacre and Polygamy). I’m hoping they rebroadcast this another time so I can see what everyone is talking about.
As for the kind of Mormon I am, I’m just like everyone else. I try my very hardest to fulfill my callings, to be the best wife and mother I can be, to be living the commandments, to be serving others, and to be a good daughter of my Heavenly Father. Even though I try hard, I’m not perfect. I’m SO far away from perfect but I keep trying. Being a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints isn’t easy. There’s sometimes that I wish I didn’t have to go to meetings or work at this activity or visit teach this lady, but I just remind myself that part of being a member of the church is work and that I willingly accepted that when I was baptized. The great thing is that even though I’m not perfect, the Lord knows that I am trying and He continually blesses me and my family for it. I see that everyday.
i love and know that the gospel is true. and i love and know that people are imperfect. and to see such strong men also have such obvious imperfections, to me, is a testament to the idea that Heavenly Father still loves us when we make a wrong choice and that the atonement is never so far away that it wasn’t also for us. i embrace the discrepancies because without the discrepancies we wouldn’t need our Savior.
and i agree, councilwoman! i wish Jesus was more a part of it and not just mentioned as our attempt to mesh with “mainstream” christianity…
I only saw part of the first night, but I found myself wishing that a fuller account of our history was taught more routinely in Church classes. It would be easier to accept, if not understand, things like Mountain Meadows if it were taught as a part of the regular curriculum. I wish I had learned about the more difficult parts of our history from a faithful teacher (seminary, institute, Sunday school, etc.),in a setting where it could be discussed, rather than reading it in a book by myself. History–all history–generates questions, and it would have been reassuring to talk about it in a classroom where there was faith, if not all the answers. People contend that the history is availble for those who want to find about it; but if it were taught more regularly, perhaps it wouldn’t come as such a shock later. I truly did not know that Joseph Smith actually practiced polygamy until well after my college years (at BYU!). Perhaps I did not dig deep enough, but I trusted my classes to be fairly comprehensive. It was disappointing to realize that they were not. To me, the omission of unpleasant historical facts in the regular cirriculum needlessly amplifies the sense of shame and misunderstanding associated with them.
Thanks for blogging about it.
i’m a caffeinated pop drinking, bikini wearing, temple attending, life long member of the church- proud mother of five (who’s not afraid to use the word “proud”). I love the gospel, I love my kids, I love the savior. I’m definitely a bit liberal in my views, but bothered when people somehow think that I take the gospel or my covenants lightly. Glad to see I’m not the only one.
I didn’t see all of the documentary- but my biggest beef was the implication that the church somehow discourages intellectuals. My entire family is college educated- many with graduate degrees. My dad has a PhD in nuclear physics and is one of the best men/high councilors/church members/priesthood holders/fathers I have ever met. So stick that in your pipe and smoke it.
I was a bit shocked to tell the truth. Currently, I have a brother and DH who are questioning the gospel. This documentary came at a bad time for me. I knew nothing of the ‘Mountain Meadow’ horror. It makes my heart sink. I know that it wasn’t the ‘gospel’, and that those involved must have incredible guilt. It just makes me sad that this church, which I love, was involved.
What kind of Mormon am I? I am struggeling. I am strong. I am confident. I love the GOSPEL - not necessarily the people. I have a hard time with black and white, right and wrong. I try to do my best. I realize that I am good enough. I love my family and hope to be a good example. I love to have fun and yes, I even love some questionable humor from time to time. I just want to be happy.
CJane,
The other day I was thinking: “What is it about that family (yours) that I like so much? Why do I so love to interact with them and so enjoy reading CJane’s blog even though I’ve never met her?” The conclusion I came to is that a) you (and your family) feel familiar. You remind me of my family, and the family I married in to. I constantly find myself agreeing with you, and feeling grateful that you have so many readers because I think you really “get it”–the Gospel, that is. So maybe that’s a slightly narcissistic reason to like you, but oh well. And b) I think you are neat. I look at your blog and think, “I could make an apron.” I read Nie’s blog and think, “I want to learn to re-cover furniture and oh, that’s what I should do with my cake-plate collection!”
That said, thank you for your honesty and conviction and boldness. Like the councilwoman and others, I was frustrated that the documentary didn’t do a bit more to infrom its viewers of the basic tenets of our faith–primarily our worship of Christ and our belief that we are saved by His grace. I know a lot of saints were disappointed in the program, even outraged. I think many people were shocked by some of our history that they were unfamiliar with. Though I still have many questions about certain things, I am confident in an unchanging, loving God, who knows exactly what He is doing. I am confident in His will and timing. On my mission, I taught a man that is muslim. When he asked me about polygamy, I went into my whole song and dance about how there weren’t enough men to take care of the women, and how only a small percentage of the people were called to do it, etc. etc. And he said, “You don’t have to make apology for it. In my faith, God allows us to take four wives, and we make no apology for that.” I was really humbled and realized that he was right. We practiced polygamy because God commanded us to. Period. But I don’t believe we are blindly obedient. I certainly am not. I read and study and have a testimony both logically and through the Spirit.
What kind of Mormon am I? The kind that loves Coke–especially with crushed ice. (Stan’s on 9th East has the best.) I’m the kind that doesn’t listen to the American rating system to determine if a movie will hurt or help my life. (How can we label something like “Schindler’s List” as bad because of its R rating, and then think it’s OK to watch something as repulsive and offensive as “Austin Powers?” because it’s only PG-13? Big soap-box of mine. Enough said.) The kind who has close relationships with several people who are practicing homosexuals, and loves them whole-heartedly, and spends a great deal of energy trying to educate homophobic latter-day saints. The kind that believes that the most important thing to understand about the Gospel is that God loves us and that Christ can make us whole. And that the most important thing in the world is to be nice. The kind who knows she has so far to go to become like Christ, but is doing her best.
cjane,
thank you. i wish i could say something better than that, something that means thank you, you’ve just made my life a little better and lets you see the tears running down my face. to think i thought i was the only heartwrecked, sad excuse (in most folks’ eyes)of a returned missionary out there. to think i was goin’ it alone. thank you to everyone who’s made me feel a little less lonely today, a little less lost and out of place.
for what it’s worth, here’s the kind of Mormon woman i am: the kind that shaves her head twice a week because it’s the most honest me there is. the kind that has to preface bearing my testimony with “this is hard” not because i’m afraid of the crowd but because on the bad days, i really don’t know how i feel. i’m the kind that loves my child so much i get confused by the notion that we don’t get to go back to Heavenly Father just by virute of being his kids, the kind that cried when the First Presidency asked us to write our senators regarding gay marriage and, ashamed, said simply: i cannot. some might call me a mormon with too little faith, with an oversized soft spot for people who’ve been wrecked along the way, the kind who trusts too much in mercy, whose brightest hope is grace. the kind who mistakes learning compassion for the purpose of this life. and maybe those people are right, maybe i’ll be sore surprised the day we finally understand. but like the other amazing women who’ve posted here, i’m the kind of mormon woman whose faith, small though it may be, is firm in the love of Jesus Christ, and certain that this is where he wants me to be.
thank you cjane. my hope is a little brighter today.
“And polygamy (very big deal to me), blacks and the priesthood, gays, women and the priesthood, historical issues— well, I’m disillusioned.â€
I found the interview transcript at pbs.org from the conversation they had with Elder Holland really refreshing. I think that is an example of being able to wonder and not fully understand some of the past and still be passionate about the church and its truthfulness. We each have different things that will test our faith and in the end, that is the key — FAITH.
I think it’s also important as thinking members to realize that not all acounts of history are going to be “true” in the capital-T sense of the word. One of the key things this documentary said to me is that history is as much about interpretation as it is about “fact.” Yes, things like polygamy and MMM happened. But can we fully understand why? NO. We can’t impose our 21st century understanding on these things. This is one of the things I hear Elder Holland saying — it’s OK to say we don’t fully understand and we don’t know some things. We can hold onto what we DO know and move forward in faith. We can hold onto the anchors of testimony we DO have and let it be OK that we don’t understand everything.
Hmmm…I didn’t explain myself very well. What I thought was so interesting about the documentary is that basically, you had lots of people focusing on the same topics and coming up with completely different conclusions. The perspectives really ran the gamut. So we need to take what we hear in a context of something much, much larger. As Pres. Hinckley said, either Joseph Smith was called of God or he wasn’t. Was he perfect? No. Did he profess to be? No. Did he need to be? No. What’s amazing about this church is that the Lord allows imperfect people to contribute to His work. That includes JS, BY and you and me. We can’t expect more from others than the Lord has expected. His work rolls forth in spite of our imperfections. That is part of the wonder of it all. As hard as I know it is for some to grapple with “our history” don’t forget that those things are not what our church is about. We are about coming to Christ, about binding us to Him through ordinances and covenatns and a way of life that can fill our lives with His Spirit and the power of His Atonement. And that Atonement can cover us and those who went before us if and as we bind ourselves to Him. That is really what matters most.
I appreciate and agree with what everyone has said. I myself have no real problem with the Church’s history. I do however have a problem with the makers of this specific Frontline special. Don’t get me wrong, I love PBS and love Frontline, I love public radio. My issue is that whenever a piece is done on religion it is done in such a way that favors the underlying assumption that religion has no validity. I usually think that you can expect this kind of journalism from Fox News, but to see it from Frontline is a shame and only furthers the ignorant argument of Public television being part of “liberal Media”. I wish that they would have interviewed FARMS or even examined the POSSIBILITY that the Book of Mormon is a valid text or that Joseph Smith was God’s prophet, or even the effect that it has on peoples lives, shouldn’t that matter? I felt that this documentary was more of a comment on religion in general not just the LDS faith. If you believe in God then it’s not a difficult thing to accept the idea of Christ, the Bible, Joseph Smith, or the Book of Mormon. I don’t feel this has shaken my testimony one bit, it has however reminded me to keep a healthy open perspective on information, what really matters in the end is my faith in God who I trust.
Anne,
Be my friend! Someday we’ll have to preach from our twin soapboxes about the ratings system- the two movies you chose to illustrate your point are exactly the two I would have chosen. Also, I have often found myself struggling with my easy acceptance of homosexuals (while believing that homosexuality is wrong)- wondering if it somehow puts me in opposition to the basic tenets of our faith (I have never felt that it does, to the contrary, it has always struck me as the Christlike way to be). Where did you serve your mission?
I am coming into this discussion very, very late (and all others regarding “The Mormons”) because I haven’t watched it yet.
It’s sitting on my TiVo, begging me to watch. But I just can’t seem to get up the courage to do it. Perhaps this is because I take things personally, especially regarding my faith. I’m tired of having to defend it (mostly to family) and I fear this program will rip my heart out.
I do have to agree (as many did) with councilwoman about Christ –he wasn’t mentioned, eh? That stinks, because everyone believes we don’t believe in Him. How is that possible? How can that be? I just don’t get it. He is the reason we have this Church. I mean, it’s His!!
What kind of Mormon am I? I try to be the best one I can, in all honesty. I’m a tithe paying, temple going, Sabbath observing, calling-fulfilling, children raising, crazy person. Does that make me perfect? Yeah, right and hell, no! But at least I’m trying.
I like what Lyle said: “It was asked last night if the church could survive the 21st century. Not only will it survive, but it will flourish until it fills the earth, with or without you and I in the process.”
That’s what’s so great about this Gospel and helps my testimony. No matter how many people leave the Church, it continues to grow. No matter how many people criticize the Church, it continues to grow. Satan is sure trying is damndest to remove it –but he is going to fail. No doubt about that…
Michelle, thanks for giving the link to Elder Holland’s interview. Thank you.
Okay, well I’m commenting again because I actually had a chance to watch it. The PBS link has a watch online version is anyone does not have time for TV, etc…
I think the emphasis on missionary work is great. I loved that they talked about the intensity of the work, and about the MTC. It was interesting.
As an African-American I knew about the priesthood issue before. I probably will never *get* it, and that’s okay. I’m not out to understand everything.
For me, at this point, I know that the church fits, and that it is not only good, but true.
No religion is perfect, and although part of the documentary was negative and did not even touch really on Christ (as the councilwoman noted), I think it does a better job than most.
Melissa (#31)
I agree. I was lucky to have a mother who loved reading church history (the good and the bad) and cautiously introduced me to Juanita Brooks and other subaltern mormon writers (as well the litany of “approved” historical sources). However, I wish that history was not seen as a “bad” word in faithful church circles, that these disturbing events that happened (polygamy, MMM) could be discussed more openly.
My bishop/Stake President when I was growing up was a church historian and I felt he was an excellent example of faithfulness in spite of and because of the realities of church history.
It feels to me that brushing these events aside only perpetuates their mystery and possible misunderstanding. But, as I have seen, obsessing over their contradictions is just as damaging. Where’s the middle ground?
I have it recorded but have not had a chance to watch it yet, except for a smidge of the Katrina stuff, which I loved.
Thoughts on this excellent thread:
1-I love what the councilwoman said. The beauty of the Restored Christianity is a fuller, more complete understanding of redemption through the Atonement of Jesus Christ. It’s not some PR move. If anything, it’s an attempt to help others, and ourselves, understand our own doctrine more fully.
2-Since I “discovered” sticky issues in Church history, particularly polygamy, I’ve wished we could be more open about it. There are some powerful stories out there that we do not tell because they have too much polygamy in them. I want to know more about how the women fared while their husbands were running from the polygamy hunters… the years before the Manifesto, what little I’ve read of them, are so interesting to me. I think there’s a great deal of dedication and faith we’re missing out on. The pioneers didn’t lose their devotion once they arrived in Utah. But because they were so often polygamists, we don’t get much in the way of official stories. It’s sad.
But I also see why. I don’t think it’s always that we are glossing over hard issues. I think they are focusing on the core issues of the gospel. Mara, I agree: where is the middle ground, between not knowing about hard issues at all and obsessing over them?
What I want, even more, is a proud ground! I am descended from polygamists on both sides of my family and grateful for that heritage. I am grateful that my ancestors obeyed the counsel they were given, and took extra wives. Do I understand it? Heck no. Do I want to live it myself? HECK no (and that’s the kind of Mormon I am. My swearing is “heck” in all caps.). I’m also a descendant of John D. Lee, of Mountain Meadows infamy. Not so proud of that. But he’s still a part of my story. I want to know about it too.
I’ve been thinking as I do the dishes about what kind of Mormon I am. I don’t know. Can I say who I am by where I’ve come from? I have come from polygamists, from a man who led a massacre, from one of Joseph Smith’s bodyguards, from a Mormon Batallion soldier, from a woman who buried her new baby at sea as she traveled to Zion. I don’t know their stories as well as I want to, but they are still part of me.
I am not so full of questions as I used to be, not because I have answers, but because I am at peace with letting the questions just be. I am more judgmental than I should be, and also trying to develop the charity to see clearly and judge righteously. Like all of you (we are sisters in the community of saints together) I love the Lord, and His restored gospel of grace.
cjane and friends,
I feel blessed to have had faith all of my life and I know that I must never take that for granted.
I have really enjoyed reading all of your insites and feelings about the church and the gospel. I didn’t see all of the PBS program, but I have it taped to do so. I agree that we should teach our children MORE about early church history. I did not do that, really, because I learned most of what I know from reading a lot. My 17 year old son watched the part about Mountain Meadow Massacre with me, though, and it gave me a chance to talk to him about it. So, this program has opened up a lot of dialogue in and out of the church, which is great. And its great that Courtney is encouraging MORE dialogue with her blog. I was heartsick when I learned about The Mountain Meadow Massacre at age 18, so I know that it is something very difficult to bring up and talk about with children. My mother did a presentation about it for a women’s literary group. I do not understand polygamy and I know from my reading that it caused much heartache for many women, including Emma. When I read, EMMA, in college it really affected me. But, it also made me love and respect Emma and those women even more. I think Emma has been portrayed unfairly by a lot of historians, and I wish people knew more about her. A book that helps to explain her situation when the members left Nauvoo, is LeGrande Baker’s new book about Joseph Smith, and the book called, Emma and Joseph, written by their descendent, Gracia Jones.(I hope that’s the last name). Gracia was the first direct descendent to be baptized. Through much pondering and prayer, I have been able to feel comfortable with the fact that we will never understand many things during our mortal lives and that Heavenly Father will have answers for us in the next life. I have felt that by learning more about our history…good and bad, it has caused me to pray more and that it has strengthened my love for the Savior and my Father in Heaven.
Most people have no idea how much the church members suffered at the hands of those who hated, mobbed, and forced them out of Missouri, Ohio, and Illinois. They don’t know anything about the fact that women were raped, and that members were tortured and/or killed. We don’t dwell on that as a church; when we could. But it is charitable not to dwell on it and to forgive. The atmosphere of the country at that time influenced non-members and also contributed to some of the church’s policies and commandments. The members of the church abhorred slavery, loved their country, and wanted the freedom to worship their God and to live in peace with their families. It is so ironic that local leaders, governers, and presidents of the United States did nothing to help the members of our church, when the constitution was founded on the premise of religious freedom.
I was a teenager on vacation with my family in California when we learned of President Kimball’s revelation regarding giving the priesthood to all worthy men. My family was thrilled and so grateful. I know that President Kimball prayed fervently for that blessing. We don’t know why it happened the way that it did, why it took so long to happen, or why it was not allowed in the beginning. But, God knows.
I am an active Mormon and an aunt to cjane!
I love God and my Savior with all of my heart. I have a strong testimony of Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon, and the church. I love serving in the church, being a mother, daughter, sister, sister-in-law, daughter-in-law, aunt, and grandma. I am a Mormon who has always felt a lot of compassion for people who are suffering; including people who are gay and conflicted about the church. I have long felt that sexuality is most likely a result of the hormones, chemicals, etc. that we are exposed to and carry, in the womb. I don’t think it is something that can “just be changed” in a lot of cases. (my opinion). And so, I think it is a particularly difficult challenge for a member of the church. Being “single” and living the commandments can be as difficult a challenge.
I am a Mormon who thinks it is awesome that we have a woman, an African American, and a Mormon running for president. And I like all three of them.
One of MY soapboxes: People like Sean Hannity, a Christian, who is extremely cruel about and to people who don’t share his beliefs.
I’m the kinda Mormon who watched that documentary and thought, “Woo, that (polygamy, Mountain Meadows, the way we handle homosexuality, etc.) is a mess. MY mess. My people. You wanna make something of it?”
I’m a Mormon who is so grateful for the idea that changes have come in the past and will come again. I don’t pretend to know what they are and I have realized it’s not my place to suggest what they might be, although it is a thrill for anyone to be the first to teach a new idea. That thrill is for the ivory tower, not for Zion. They are two very different worlds. I think now is the first time in my life I’m realizing that.
By the way, you can watch the entire documentary online at pbs.org. That’s how I saw it.
Why does everyone always put polygamy in the same sentence with bad? If God commanded it then how can it be “bad”. I have never practiced polygamy, nor do I really wish to. But at one point in my life I had a dear friend who was not blessed to have a companion, eternal or otherwise, whom I loved so much that I pondered and even considered the fact that if Heavenly Father commanded my husband to take another wife I could in fact be happy for my friend to share a god-ordained marriage with my husband, and to also have a loving marriage the way I have with my husband. I think it was a turning point in my life. To look at my husband as more than “my” posession and to become less selfish.
Sadly though now having said that I don’t believe I nurtured that idea of charity, and am not sure I would automatically feel the same today. But, having had that enlightening experience, I would hope that if HF commanded that of me I would be able to overcome the obstacles that might prevent me from embracing the commandment. I am afraid I often take the words of the Prophets as suggestions rather than commandments. Our leader’s “council” is not meant to limit us, but rather to bless our lives and increase the blessings that we are entitled to for obedience to that council.
Since joining the church 25 years ago I have had numberous occasions of exposure to opposition of my religious beliefs. My experience has been that the oppostion is always a catalyst to study more and find out the answers to the opposition’s statements or questions, and has always brought me closer to the truth, and my testimony has grown stronger. I beleive that inviting the spirit in these searches has been extremely important to that result.
I have some bad history myself, hence my moniker, and unfortunatly continue to make bad history (not the kind that requires visits to the bishop or stake president, although I wish it did, then maybe I would take more seriously my mounding debt because of my compulsion to hoard all things pretty). I struggle with being imperfect, as I am sure our current leaders do, and as did our early leaders.
I have to wonder myself if this documentary had been made during the time of Noah or Moses or Peter and Paul if there would have been dirt to report on the likes of these men that we revere as prophets and the perhaps sketchy dealings of God’s people in those earliest of times. Critics continually try to discredit the validity of our Savior and his mission. I put this “show” in the same category, trying to tear down rather than build up.
People are like crabs. If you have ever been crabbing you know that you keep crabs alive until you are ready to eat them and the first crab you catch will climb right out of the container unless you keep it covered tightly. Once you have more than one crab you never have to cover the container again. Every time a crab tries to climb out the other crab or crabs will pull him back down. The purpose of the gospel is to help you up and take you to a better place, here and in the eternities. Unfortunately people, even people within the church, fall prey to this base desire to hold others down just like crabs do. This program was quite crabby, with little doses of good to make it palatable.
I am sorry for those who were shocked by hearing about the Mountain Meadow Massacre or other historical events for the first time on the program.
I, for one, am VERY happy that those historical events aren’t preached or taught in church meetings. The reason is because they aren’t the gospel. They are historical events, which are different than the gospel. The events of the Mountain Meadow Massacre don’t effect my salvation, even if I were descended from one of the participants. Another reason that I am happy about it is because there is so much disagreement and speculation about the event to adequately address actual facts in a classroom setting.
But, if you want to learn more about it, I would suggest visiting the monument or reading some of the hundreds of books that have been written about it.
And, I thought that Elder Oaks’ comments about it were very good.
Also, #35. brittney c.: Regarding the writing of our senators about same-sex marriage - I was almost mortified when that happened. Fortunately I have a very patient and trusted friend with whom I could discuss my hesitencies and feelings. I struggled with it for about a week, searched for church statements online, read opinions about the issue from both sides online, and finally came to what I believe is a better understanding with why it was being asked of me. Anyway, just wanted let you know that you weren’t alone in being shocked by that request.
Just a quick (very late) thought on the MMM….the main things that bugged me about the coverage of it were the following: 1)They failed to give equal attention to both sides, 2)They made it seem as though it is gospel truth that BY ordered it and that is NOT a fact, and 3)They GREATLY failed on giving accurate history as to why the Saints were in such a state to begin with - all the murders and rapes and pillaging by mobs and the ultimate extermination order from a government official. I can’t imagine living through Haun’s Mill and other such atrocities without coming out the other side being a scared trigger-happy lunatic. For a very long time the Saints only had themselves to depend on and no matter the injustices there was no aid, support, or protection from the government. Was the MMM horrific and tragic? YES. Was it ridiculous to spend that much time on it in the documentary - OF COURSE. It was not well covered at all. Perspective and balance are EVERYTHING.
The creepy pic of the “angel” was just eery - where did they get such an awful thing? The portrait of JS was just poorly done as well - very one-sided and made him out to be a loon.
Very sad that Christ was not part of the equation here. That is why the documentary didn’t remotely do justice to the faith in my view.
I am a member who served a mission, moved to Utah, struggled with infertility for many many years, and appreciate the questions that I have concerning the Gospel and the Church - and BTW, I feel totally at liberty to ask them. I believe any question can be asked if it is done in the right spirit. I am trying hard not to be a “Utah Mormon” and I struggle with the tradition of the culture here rather than the focus of the Gospel sometimes. I’m in YW and I try very diligently to teach about being a daughter of God and a follower/friend of the Savior - not all of us will be blessed with husbands and children and it can be devastating when there is so much focus there. That is my soap-box.