I’m not sure if either brand of parenting leads to kids making bad choices. My husband’s parents were very laid back and encouraged their kids to make choices. My parents were much more restrictive. Both sets of parents had kids that really screwed up. But the difference I saw was that my husband’s siblings actually talked to their parents and came clean. My siblings didn’t. So perhaps the biggest difference I see is that parents who allow their kids to make choices and have freedoms are usually more willing to talk to their kids and their children are more willing to come to them when they’ve made bad choices.

One thing that we’ve wrestled with is the media use issue raised by FoxyJ. Specifically, we have come across this regarding school-assigned reading and movie assignments.

Some LDS parents we know are fanatical about protecting their kids from non-church-standard stuff. In my family we tend to consider that if it has enough merit to be assigned, we will also read/watch and discuss with them.

But one family had their child disenroll from the International Baccalaureate high school program, which is a standardized curriculum around the world and thus has no possibility of substitution for books they thought objectionable.

Last week my 9th grader asked me about the movie GATTACA, which she vaguely remembered her big sisters watching and which she had heard from a science teacher portrayed an interesting future (it’s an excellent film). So I got the video, we watched together, I fast-forwarded through the gratuitous sex scene, and we talked about it.

Also, in our house once a child turns 12, or hopefully by 14 at the latest, they no longer have to ask parents for permission to go anywhere. They do have to notify us where they are. I see that period up to age 18 as a time when parents serve as coaches to make their own decisions.

For example, when a 16 y.o. called about 11 p.m. to say that he was at Pizza Hut and someone had ordered another round so he’d be a while, I just said, “Fine, whatever you want to do. If you think you can do well at your math competition tomorrow, whatever.” He was home in five minutes, and we avoided a fight over whether or not he could stay (which I thought was not my decision at that point in his life).

This principle was sorely tested when a daughter thought about going on spring break with some non-LDS girls her senior year of high school, but as we talked through the possibilities and consequences, she chose not to go.

I love Utah, we have wonderful resources and amenities available here, especially when it comes to the Gospel. But you will find the same bad things here that you’ll find anywhere else. Anyone who thinks otherwise is kidding themselves. We’re here to teach our children the importance of free agency and to hopefully equip them with the right tools to make good decisions, it’s up to them to take it from there.

Amen.

And Heather O., I like your comment about learned helplessness.

I have also been thinking about how this is all often tied to a parent’s personality and risk/chaos tolerance. My sister and I have quite different parenting styles. She is more free-range like, I’m more protective. She is the type that responds when something happens, I’m the type that anticipates what could happen and tries to avoid it. Again, just like my earlier comment about pendulums, I think either could be taken to an extreme. But I also think that there is room for some personality differences as well.

I also think that, at least for me, all of this also requires a great deal of self-reflection and honesty. Sometimes, I make choices on how to interact with my children simply based on what I can handle, rather than what might be best for them. I don’t think that is always bad (can’t give from an empty well, right?), but again, that’s another thing that can often be out of balance, imo. Teaching well is rarely convenient, and I think we need to be willing to push ourselves a bit to figure out and execute good parenting techniques and patterns. If we don’t, kids might end up manipulating, or being confused about how boundaries, choices, and consequences really work.

I also think that both boundaries and freedoms can communicate love from a parent to a child. SO MUCH TO BALANCE!

Justine, I like your paragraph about helping children understand that they are in charge of their destiny. Good thoughts. Even if my execution might be a little different, that is the kind of principle that we are trying to work toward, but I can sense from reading your comments and some practical ideas, that I can be more specific, more particular about it.

This is a great discussion. It’s giving me good things to think about. Thanks.

And as far as specific choices, it’s true that each kid is different. When my son was 8 years old and had a really rough fight with someone in the house, I suggested he get on his bike and ride the 1/2 mile down to the church pavilion and just read or pray or rant and rave — do something outside the house that he could do completely alone. It was exactly what he needed. But my 8 year old daughter wasn’t ready for that freedom. But now that she’s older, she’s grown into herself more, and has earned more freedoms.

We’ve always told our kids that they will be treated with freedoms and privileges accordant with the age they are behaving. When they make mature decisions, the world opens up for them more. When they make poor decisions, or decisions based on tantrums or anger, they are treated accordingly. At some point, each of our children has kind of “gotten it” that they are in charge of their own destiny. As they make decisions to be responsible with their duties at home, they are given leeway to stay up later, exert more freedom out in the world, choose their own activities and endeavors, etc.

It doesn’t always work, but we’re getting there. Someday, right?

The girl is 9. And the deep end is 5 feet.

The message she is getting, when all the other kids, including MY 4 YEAR OLD, were swimming in the deep end? Not “it’s not safe”, but “you’re not good enough to do what all the other kids are doing.”

For me, I taught my kid how to swim early, so he can go into the deep end safely, so he knows what is safe and what isn’t, so he knows when he can dive and when he can’t, so he knows all the rules of swimming and can abide by them.

Which kid is safer at the pool? Yup. The kid who can swim.

There are scary and evil things in this world (and yes, in Utah, too. The only difference is that in Utah, the kids who are smoking and drinking are Mormon, too), and I am all for creating a safe haven in our homes from evil. But overprotected kids become fearful and anxious and introverted. I’ve seen it happen. It’s a hard call to figure out where the line is between hand holding (m&m, my kid doesn’t cross the street without holding my hand too, and he’s 6) and teaching a child learned helplessness.

And seriously, the Utah thing? When I was out of Utah, and I said, “I don’t drink, I’m Mormon,” people went, “Oh. Ok”. In Utah, they say, “Well, me too.”

So give your kid the tools he will need to make it in this evil world, and provide a haven for him to retreat to when things get too ugly. And for heaven’s sake, teach them how to swim.

The other comments though, every child is such an individual that even within one family the amount of choices given one won’t necessarily be given another. Some may have more freedom than others because they demonstrate that they are ready for it. (I don’t believe in teaching my children that life is fair. Now there is one concept that I think parents need to do away with!)

I think the main thing is how much do we protect our homes? How much do we teach them the standards and why they are what they are? Do we talk with our children? Do we have fun activities together? Are we ready when they want to talk? And when decisions are being made, do we give them a voice so they learn to make decisions?

I’ve seen families who homeschooled their children where the children were well educated and social and taught to choose. Not always making wise choices, they’re teenagers, but they’re doing well. I’ve also seen families in the same circumstance where the children seemed to struggle more either academically and/or socially. I’ve seen children in the public schools who exibit each of those qualitites as well. You can add in private school, pick a state, rich and poor. At some point children have to go out on their own, make their own choices and either reap or face the consequences of those choices.

Thankfully, I know I’m not alone in trying to get my own children to that point. There are WAY too many variables and far too many things completely out of my control.