I’ll Have a Miniskirt with a Side Order of Cleavage

Posted by Jennie | August 6, 2009 | 88 Comments

I found myself furtively staring at the family across the aisle from me on the airplane. The boys looked just like mine as they played their Nintendo DSs, but their yarmulkes and tzitzis gave them away as Orthodox Jews; as did the long-sleeved shirt and long skirt of the mother, a pretty woman who looked about my age. She caught me staring a few times. I wanted to reassure her that I wasn’t staring because I thought she was weird. “I’m modest too!” I wished I could explain (me in my jeans and fitted t-shirt). But modesty means different things to different people and she might not have agreed.

———————————

India, my 13-year-old daughter, held the photo of me at my first BYU Preference dance. She wasn’t aghast at the big permy 80’s hair or the white pantyhose on my legs. Instead she exclaimed, “Mom, your dress doesn’t have sleeves!” I tried to explain that back when I had to sign an honor code, it just said that modesty meant no spaghetti straps or strapless tops. Things changed somewhere along the line and now good Mormon girls go to the prom in temple-ready dresses. I didn’t mention to India that I think it’s dumb for girls to have to dress like they are already wearing garments.

———————————-

Modesty is a tricky subject. It means something different for people of our faith than it does for anyone else. It means different things to people within our faith. The Brethren have done a good job of giving us guidelines without trying to get too nitpicky. (Although if you have a teenage girl, nitpicky would be nice. Trying to explain why a modest tankini is not allowed at Girls Camp is no fun, let me tell you.)

On one hand are my LDS sisters who tuck and pin and roll garment waistbands way down. On the other are my LDS sisters who wear swimsuits that not only have sleeves, but are knee-length as well (they exist, oh yes they do).

Shuffling around in the middle are a lot of people like me. I want to look attractive and–dare I say it—just a hint of sexy. I don’t want to wear a t-shirt so tight that you can see the stitching of my bra. But I don’t want to dress the same as my 65-year-old mother either.

Some of my temptations have been removed: a bikini and short shorts are no longer within the realm of possibility due to cellulite issues. But other things are more grey: I have several knit dresses—how clingy is too clingy? Can shoes be immodest? I thought not until one of the Laurels in my ward showed up in 4” platform heels that looked way too stripper-ish. Is all cleavage forbidden? What about our big-busted sisters who show cleavage unless they are wearing a turtleneck? Is it their problem or ours? I guess that’s what it all boils down to; is modesty about what feels right to ourselves or is just about what other people think?

Comments

88 Responses to “I’ll Have a Miniskirt with a Side Order of Cleavage”

mmiles
August 6th, 2009 @ 9:31 am

And exactly Why is a tankini not allowed at girl’s camp?
Justine
August 6th, 2009 @ 10:14 am

We just had this monster discussion with our eight year old about this issue. How do you explain why her best friend, who was just baptized, is wearing a string bikini at the pool, but it’s not ok for our daughter to wear it?

And how do you teach her to navigate that conversation with her friend? Especially when her friends are ALREADY telling her to ‘loosen up’.

And how do you teach her to understand the nuance of individual choice without sounding piously stuck-up?

How do you explain our own family standards and defend them while saying that her friends are still wonderful and good people, even if they make different choices?

How can that give any weight to the choices we make as a family? It feels impossible.

And isn’t there sometimes when following the Prophet just means FOLLOWING THE PROPHET?

And how can we make choices that feel right for our family without being judged and mocked by people making different choices? It happens – both ways!

And why can’t they make some of those super cute summer dresses WITH SLEEVES!

Sorry, you hit a topic that’s ON MY MIND.
Jennie
August 6th, 2009 @ 10:51 am

MMiles-I’ve been in two stakes and in both the rule has been”no two piece swim suits–NO EXCEPTIONS”. Since teenage girls tend to push the envelope, I guess they figure that a modest tankini will morph quickly into a full-blown bikini.

Justine–I’m with you 100%!
sar
August 6th, 2009 @ 11:34 am

When I was in a singles ward at BYU, at one of our stake conferences the visiting authority told us that shoes could be immodest and that we girls needed to wear pantyhose and close-toed shoes to church. So there are some people who believe shoes can be immodest. I’d chose the word inappropriate myself, if I happened to agree with that sentiment.
Kay
August 6th, 2009 @ 11:39 am

Living out in the world, so to speak, LDS friends are in the minority for our daughters. I have always said that the biggest problem I have is not that their school friends that they associate with every day wear what we would consider immodest clothes, but that some of their church friends do too. I can easily explain away the school girls, they do not have our knowledge and principles. The HARD part is explaining why some of the church girls go to activities in short shorts, low cut tops and other revealing things.

No matter what others choose to do we have set the standards within our family. We know what is acceptable to us, and consequently what isn’t. Our 11 year old is still sweet and innocent and wouldn’t dream of waering anything even a tiny bit revealing. Our 12 year old is a different kettle of fish altogether. She has pushed her whole life at whatever limit was set.

I understand all of Justine’s comments. Clothing is a minefield for girls sometimes. Boys are so much easier. I find the hardest thing is buying clothes for church. Modest but fashionable church clothes are nearly impossible to find once you reach a certain age. Skirts are short, dresses are strappy and low. Please, nobody suggest I make them myself. That is just laughable knowing my skills in that area.
Julie P
August 6th, 2009 @ 11:59 am

It was interesting for me to talk to my non-LDS best friend about my sisters wedding dress shopping adventures early this year. I was explaining that my sister was going to UT to look for a wedding dress since in California she had only one “modest” choice. And after I said it, I realized she might have taken my word choice to infer that her choice of a beautiful, strapless wedding dress was not modest, and be offended. I wrote her an e-mail telling her I was worried I offended her (I hadn’t) and we had an interesting conversation about how the word means different things for different people, like Jennie mentioned above. It was interesting for me to have that conversation about modesty with someone not of our faith.

I just deleted an extra long tangent about how much I agree with this: “I didn’t mention to India that I think it’s dumb for girls to have to dress like they are already wearing garments” but I’ll just call it good.
Merry Michelle
August 6th, 2009 @ 12:33 pm

Um, WHY is it DUMB for “girls to have to dress like they are already wearing garments”? What is the reasoning behind that? What happened to Justine’s “How can we make choices that feel right for our family without being judged and mocked by people making different choices”?
Heather
August 6th, 2009 @ 12:39 pm

Amen, Merry Michelle.

Although I don’t stringently follow that sentiment as an unendowed sister myself, I completely understand and tend to agree with the rationale of wearing clothes that you could wear with garments. It’s just a good guideline to follow in determining what is modest so modesty isn’t so “tricky,” as Jennie termed it. If for no other reason, it just helps to simplify the problem.

For me, though, I believe that those of us who are not yet endowed but would like to be someday should be preparing for the temple and still remain temple worthy. When evaluating my own “readiness,” I would question it if I had to make a whole lot of changes as soon as I came out of the temple. But, that’s just my two cents.
Anonymous
August 6th, 2009 @ 12:41 pm

I dress my children like they are wearing garments because I think it will make for an easier transition. I dress them that way because I don’t think that skimpy bikinis and midriff baring shirts are appropriate at any age. I dress them that way because I don’t feel like I should make my children appealing to pedophiles. I do it because I want them to understand that modesty is important.

Nice to know that you think parents that do that are “dumb”.

I will no longer be reading this website. I don’t feel it has the same morals and standards that I do.
Dovie
August 6th, 2009 @ 12:47 pm

Jennie: Part of me wishes you had told the mother her children were beautiful, her family was beautiful, she was beautiful. Modesty is beautiful. I totally get where you might worry that it might be misinterpreted.

Mmiles: I would have loved it if any swimsuit or swimming were allowed at girls camp for my girls. There is even a lake at the church owned place they hold girls camp every year. I’m sure that they have their reasons but it is sometimes frustrating for my oldest. I don’t know if it is tied up in modesty or safety probably both. Her swimsuit is swim team modest with a high neck and everything. She even wears board shorts with it to increase the modesty. She is a modestly outlier for a teen she is a pretty girl she just is very modest.

I shouldn’t complain girls camp is a huge blessing takes a huge amount of effort and orchestration. I do have a teeny tiny wish that they would let the girls swim.

I wonder if modesty isn’t more to do with the world that we live in and not what we are wearing. I have YouTube video of my little boy filmed last year. He is two years old, I walked into the kitchen and found this scene: He has climbed up the cupboards hanging from the counter in front of the sink from his rib cage “doin’ da dishes” completely naked. Of course the first thing I did was reach for my camera to film it. All you can see is his little backside but I didn’t dare put it up anyway that anyone other than our family and a few friends could find it. Not because there is anything wrong with it but because of the world that we live in.

About two piece swimsuits when I was young that really bugged me. I even wore a two piece suit for awhile. Lots of percieved male/female inequity drove me crazy. If it weren’t for the Spirit leading me along and letting me know that there is more to what I perceived and understood I would have missed a lot. Not just about swimsuits. Things that I couldn’t comprehend when I was young.

Lately I’ve thought a bit about that part of the body that is covered in a one piece verses a two piece and that perhaps it is literally a sacred vessel. The place where spirits are carried or borne from one plane of existence to another. Maybe it is o.k. to regard that part of the body differently on a male than a female. Maybe I am over reaching.

At the same time my youngest daughter’s best friend comes to swim in the pool we have set up in backyard in a little bikini. She is just a sweet and beautiful as my little daughter in her one piece suit.

Sleeveless conundrum. I have a friend that told this story of her mom when she was a young and approaching her marriage in the temple. What she would miss most of all from her maiden days was feeling the sun on the back of her arms as she worked in the garden. It was something she was willing to sacrifice but she still mourned it.

Temple worship for complicated reasons is not a part of my life yet. I remember a point where I decided that as a refection of my desire for those blessing I would only wear clothes that were comparable with that desire. At that point there was not a lot about my wardrobe that needed to be modified but it was still a meaningful decision to me.
rookie cookie
August 6th, 2009 @ 12:52 pm

All of this reminds me of why I don’t want any daughters. It’s all too hard for me to try and explain that “this is the way we do it and you don’t get to choose until you don’t live in my house anymore”. But then again, am I taking away my child’s agency? It’s all too hard.

As for cleavage, I am an advocate. My immodest, garment-wearing self often finds that some necklines are TOO high. I probably need to repent.
angie f
August 6th, 2009 @ 12:52 pm

I totally agree with Merry Michelle. My daughters wear sleeves. For us it was a way to have one less fight down the road–if they have always dressed the same way, hopefully there will be less ground for battles (my oldest is 10, so we’ve yet to fully test the theory), not to mention fewer habits to change and clothing to alter/trash when it is time to go to the temple. It is also a way to avoid the industry that would sexualize my baby girls. There are way too many clothes out there to turn little girls into hoochie mamas. I don’t believe there is anything cute or endearing about spaghetti straps, daisy dukes or belly shirts at any age. I realize that there is a difference between spaghetti straps and a sundress that just doesn’t have sleeves, but it is also not at all difficult (and actually quite fashionable) to pair sleeveless shirts with a little knit t-shirt underneath.

While it is true that our young ones have not made the covenants that would behoove them to dress in garment-ready clothing, what is the harm or offense in practicing? We teach our young ones to practice taking the sacrament before they have been baptized, so that from a young age they are able to learn reverence for the ordinance, for the meeting and prepare to make and keep that sacred covenant. Why should dress and grooming standards be any different?

But ultimately the choice is with each family. We are always trying to teach our children that different families have different rules, whether they are clothing rules, media rules or behavior rules and to love and respect our friends and our own standards as well. But I don’t feel the same respect for our family’s standards in comments such as the “dumb for girls to wear temple worthy clothing” one. In an otherwise thoughtful post, this sort of comment is sad for me.
Dovie
August 6th, 2009 @ 12:58 pm

Compatible with that desire. Spell check how oft you trick me so!
Natalie
August 6th, 2009 @ 1:17 pm

Modesty is so weird. I like it, I appreciate it, but I do see some beautiful clothes at the mall sometimes and wish longingly to be able to own it – without covering it up with a shade or layer or some other Mormon invention (and dang good one too)

I don’t think wearing proper sleeves on my clothing helped me for the temple, I think it was good parents who taught me why I was modest. Lots of girls dress immodestly and suit up in garments just fine. Some don’t.

I’ve never tucked and pinned, with an actual device, but lets face it, garments are a huge adjustment.

And I wear a two piece a lot. Sue me. They are easier to put on & such and well, I like them. I followed all the rules though and wore a one piece to girls camp to encourage the girls to do the same
Emily C
August 6th, 2009 @ 1:20 pm

I’ve never thought about the idea of a sacred vessel before, and I must say it’s something that strikes me. I have to say that whenever I’ve seen a pregnant woman in a bikini I turn away, because it does seem immodest to bare that curve in public.

Modesty is a tricky line. Especially when you start trying to define modest behavior outside of a dress code. What is modest speech? Modest action? How do we teach that code of conduct?

*shrugs* it’s kind of like the word of wisdom, isn’t it? We have guidelines. It’s up to us to use the Spirit to interpret them.
Peyton
August 6th, 2009 @ 1:23 pm

Just for the sake of story-telling: When I was 19 or 20, my mother, my 8-year-old sister, and I decided to take a trip to Florida and stay at the beach for a week. For some reason or another, one day, instead of wearing one of my modest tankinis, I borrowed a one-piece from a cousin. Later, while I was sitting by the pool watching my sister, she swims up to me and say

“Peyt, I’m glad you’ve given up your burden of sin.”

I had to go ask my mom what she was getting taught in Primary about that one.
Jennie
August 6th, 2009 @ 1:37 pm

Anonymous and MerryMichelle- I never called people dumb who dress their girls in shirts with sleeves. I myself dress my girls in shirts with sleeves and one-piece bathing suits. Always. I follow exactly what is advised in the For Strength of the Youth booklet.

However, I still think it’s dumb. Kids haven’t made temple covenants. They don’t wear garments. If it were up to me I would let my daughters wear tank tops. I really don’t think that showing the two inches of skin at the tops of their arms is that big of a deal. It would sure make dressing them a lot easier since sleeveless shirts and dresses are so much easer to find.

Listen, I don’t have a testimony of sleeves. Sorry. I’m just being honest. But I am a faithful LDS woman and I obediently follow the prophet. So sleeves it is. I’m not judging anyone and I’m not trying to make anyone feel bad. Some people don’t have a testimony of tithing but pay it anyway. That’s kind of where I’m at on the modesty issue.

(I also don’t have a testimony of only one pair of earrings either, but I took them out when the Prophet asked me to, OK?)

Anonymous, I hope that the lack of perfect people at Segullah doesn’t keep you from visiting this blog. I think we have a pretty wonderful place where women in all stages of their faith can be welcomed and nourished..
Kathryn Soper
August 6th, 2009 @ 1:48 pm

Well said, Jennie.

People, relax. Don’t make someone an offender for a word. Asking for clarification is a mature move; storming off in disgust is not.
Melissa M.
August 6th, 2009 @ 1:49 pm

I apologize in advance if this sounds preachy. I think the Brethren actually have given us pretty specific guidelines for modesty and dress for our girls, at least the ones who are over twelve. In “For the Strength of Youth,” in the section entitled “Dress and Appearance,” it says (and I’m probably violating a copyright here….): “Immodest clothing includes short shorts and skirts, tight clothing, shirts that do not cover the stomach, and other revealing attire. Young women should wear clothing that covers the shoulder and avoid clothing that is low-cut in the front or back or revealing in any other manner.”

Sounds like they should be wearing “temple worthy clothing” to me….
Kathryn Soper
August 6th, 2009 @ 1:54 pm

Not necessarily, Melissa. I can’t wear knee-length shorts with my garments, unless I’m interested in looking like a fool. But they’re not immodest for non-endowed people of any age to wear. Ditto for cap sleeves.
Jennifer Perkins
August 6th, 2009 @ 2:01 pm

I believe sexy and modest can be worn simultaneously, but it’s all about how we feel in an article of clothing, not what we want others to perceive. When we dress for others benefit, we miss the point entirely. Great post. Good discussion topic!
Kathryn Soper
August 6th, 2009 @ 2:03 pm

Oh, man.

Anon (#9), I just noticed your pedophile comment. You’ve got to be kidding.
Peyton
August 6th, 2009 @ 2:06 pm

And garments fit different body-types differently. I can wear knee-length shorts without a problem–my garments constantly ride above the knee, but if I were to get the “Tall” size, the torso would be waaaay too long for 5’3.5″ me.

All of the clothes I owned when I got married I can still wear now with my garments on (and no tucking or pinning), but I have had roommates that commented on how “scandelous” my “low-cut” shirts were.

I do know, though, that if I weren’t a Mormon, my wardrobe would push the boundaries of modesty (though hopefully not of good taste). Hello, halter tops!

And I’ve had conversations with my married friends about how unfortunate it is that wearing garments makes buying pretty bras and such kind of a waste, since the look is totally ruined.

One day I’ll get over it.
Melissa M.
August 6th, 2009 @ 2:07 pm

Okay, Jennie, I took so long to write my previous comment (got sidetracked) that I didn’t see your response above first. Sorry for my preachy comment (and I was the one who wore a bikini on her honeymoon!). I shouldn’t have assumed that you didn’t know what “For the Strength of Youth” says about modest dress—I guess your post confused me. But kudos to you for being willing to follow the guidelines even though you don’t have a testimony of sleeves.:-) I think we all struggle with various guidelines/counsel/commandments that we don’t fully understand.
Melissa M.
August 6th, 2009 @ 2:11 pm

And Kathy, you are right about the knee-length shorts. Because I’m tall I forget that some people can’t wear knee-length shorts with garments. That’s why my rebel grandmother cut the bottoms of her garments off!
Kathryn Soper
August 6th, 2009 @ 2:13 pm

Amen, Peyton.

Garments are a subjective standard, based on the body of the person wearing them and the fabric and style of the garment.

I have two sets of garment tops. They’re the same size, but a different cut. I have v-neck shirts that I can wear with one set, but not the other.

Same situation with different types of garment bottoms and knee-length skirts.
Kathryn Soper
August 6th, 2009 @ 2:14 pm

LOL, Melissa!
Jennifer Perkins
August 6th, 2009 @ 2:19 pm

I meant to say, sexy is how we feel, not what we wear! As women, we should all see this as being beautiful from the inside out. Sexy is not clothes deep.
Kim
August 6th, 2009 @ 2:23 pm

Jennie, I love your statement about not having a testimony of the modesty guidelines (and the earrings). I agree (and am not quite so righteous–my 5 year old has tank tops, sleeveless dresses, and wears a rash gaurd and swimsuit bottom because 1 pieces rub her raw if we spend much time at the pool).

SOmetimes it makes me sad at the emphasis that is put on hiding our daughters skin (and yes, it is mostly just the girls, I’m sure largely because the boys just don’t have the same clothing issues, but what about when they want to mow the lawn shirtless, or play shirts and skins in BBall–why isn’t that usually discussed?), for many reasons–biggest one is that it can become hard to teach them to be comfortable in their own skin when they very skin seems to be so controversial. I’m worried as my daughter gets older how we will handle this because up to this point, we’ve focused most in our household on making the body a very normal, non-issue thing–our kids our young, we’re all comfortable with being naked in front of each other still, and I love how easy that makes things. But I know someday we have to teach them the other side of the coin, hopefully without making them feel anything negative about the beautiful creation of our bodies.

I did see a comment on another blog about this topic which I loved–that we need to help our daughters understand that the sexual power that the world has been willing to give women throughout the history of the world is not all that we are worth. We have so much more power, and maybe modesty is dressing in a way that we can try, as a sex, to take back more power. I’m misquoting, I know, but the basic idea was that many women probably dress immodestly because they want to feel powerful and we so often don’t feel we have much power, other than because of our bodies. But we can undermine that quest for equality by accepting such a narrow definition of our worth to the world.

Sorry I keep babbling. As for me, I try to remain attractive, but modest (and having garments makes it much less of an issue since my clothing choices are pretty narrow). And for my daughter, I try to make sure her clothing seems appropriate for the activity, but also remember that she is a young child. She wears her clothes differently than I do, and therefore, I think she can wear a tank top without invoking any sexual attitude. And there is a big difference, at least in my mind, between wearing hoochie clothing with your belly hanging out at school, or wearing a sleeveless shirt, or even the midriff bearing surfer girl swimsuit she has. Believe me, the two piece suit is way more modest than the saggy one peice suit that hangs halfway to their knees by the middle of the summer because its so stretched out.
FoxyJ
August 6th, 2009 @ 2:31 pm

Modesty is a touchy subject because so many people assume that if I make a particular choice and someone makes a different choice, then one of us must be “wrong”. Maybe, maybe not. The Church has given some guidelines for specific situations, like if you are wearing the temple garment or if you are attending BYU or girls’ camp, but I think they intend us to govern ourselves. Even FTSOY just says shirts should ‘cover the shoulder’–that may or may not mean actual sleeves. By the way, the most recent issue of Dialogue Journal has a fascinating article about the history of modesty and dress codes during the last 50 years or so. It’s pretty interesting.

For me, the most important thing is an understanding of the doctrine. Our bodies are sacred and a vital part of our soul; even I don’t really understand yet what that means. I realized a few years ago that we are not given the temple garment in order to be modest–that’s not what it says in the temple. Instead, we should be modest to show respect to the garment. To me they are two different things. I think that if we are struggling with modesty a study of doctrines of the physical body and the soul is helpful. Even I am still trying to understand that as well. A book that has some interesting ideas, but not written from an LDS perspective, is called ‘A Return to Modesty’ by Wendy Shalit. She finds that many younger women she interviews actually find themselves empowered by adopting more modest dress and behavior than they had in the past (she is Jewish and focuses on Jewish women)

As far as teaching my children, I’m still trying to figure that out. My daughter is 6, and the hardest thing for us is that she has a cousin who is a bit older and a good friend. We get a lot of clothes from her cousin for her, and I love my sis-in-law, but we differ in terms of style. For me, modesty for my daughter at this age is more about being comfortable and age-appropriate.Part of it is my bias because I’m not very ‘fashionable’ and prefer jeans and t-shirts myself, so that’s what I gravitate to for my daughter. I don’t let her wear many sleeveless tops because she has fair skin and we have a family history of skin cancer so I try and limit her sun exposure. Plus at the pool I’ve found she’s more comfortable in a one-piece. I don’t know how we’re going to keep doing things as she gets older. Learning how to navigate differences of belief without judgement is something vital for everyone to learn and I don’t think it has to do with just modesty either. My father drinks coffee every morning, and every time we visit we have to negotiate with my kids why grandpa isn’t ‘bad’ because he drinks coffee.
Kim
August 6th, 2009 @ 2:43 pm

FoxyJ–the point of dressing kids in clothing that fits their age is what I lean towards as well. I want my little girl to look like a little girl, not a small version of a teenager, even if it is “modest” in coverage. There are just some styles and looks that make me feel like the kids are trying to grow up too fast. And there is also the factor that little kids play–they run, jump, roll around on the ground. And its nice if their clothes let them do that.
gypsy
August 6th, 2009 @ 2:51 pm

For Men and women, Pres. Thomas S. Monson declares -

“Be your best self”
gypsy
August 6th, 2009 @ 2:59 pm

…and might I add,

For men women AND CHILDREN, Pres. Thomas S declares,
“Be your best self!” (yes, he has book by this title even)
Jill Shelley
August 6th, 2009 @ 3:09 pm

Personally, I don’t think we can go wrong if we follow the For the Strength of Youth pamphlet. Why re-invent the wheel? It’s all there.
traci
August 6th, 2009 @ 3:14 pm

Wow ladies – what a topic!

Another perspective. I am close to a lot of Apostolics – they dress the same no matter what the age. Sleeves at least to below the elbow, no slits in skirts (yes, they sew them all up), skirts and dresses to their shoes, hair up and never cut, swimming? they wear a one piece suit with a long sleeved long dress over it – clinging problems here?
The biggest thing about the discussion of modesty is the sexism – ok, rules for girls – Rules for Boys: no I don’t think it is modest or appropriate for boys to wear short shorts and no top outside, esp cutting the grass.(or those netting shirts, or “wife beaters”
And allowing boys to swim at camp and not the girls, major sexism, there should be a way they can swim too.

I’m a big girl on the top half and small on the bottom half. Sleeveless never worked. I wear at least 1/4 sleeves, skirts that go to my shoes or jeans, and usually a hat. I like to wear a top that is a round neck, to wear one necklace that can be seen.

I live by many Mennonites, Amish, Apostolics – I am considered to dress very scandalous – you can’t win, no matter what you do, it will get more conservative. And
again, I must say – to women. The Best we can do is each follow the edicts of our church, with conscience and judgement.

Sorry, I agree – #9 you have to be kidding! Scientific fact- some pedifiles find modest alluring. (Do we need to remember the catholic school girl look?) In other words it is not the dress it is the pedifile! That’s why it is such an act of violence.

Hey Jennie – great post!
Mommie Dearest
August 6th, 2009 @ 3:14 pm

May I de-lurk to say a positive word about tankinis? They are very practical when it comes time to visit the ladies room. They are essential when you are outdoors on a river, lake, or beach and there is no ladies room. The ones I wear are every bit as modest as a one-piece, and in fact, I prefer wearing the ones with skirted bottoms because I feel more modest in them than your basic Miss America one-piecer.
Erin
August 6th, 2009 @ 3:27 pm

I fold my garment bottoms down. Since when is that wrong? It’s not as if they’re well-fitted to a woman’s body (unless you have a VERY fluffy mid-section). I’m packing some extra pounds, but I have yet to find any pants that appeal to me when the waist hits the same as my “garment waist” — the natural waist three inches above my belly button. My garment top still covers my entire midsection and it’s tucked in. I don’t ever remember being asked OR instructed on that kind of specifics of garment wearing.

The other day we were headed to the lake and my daughter’s swimsuit was all musty in the laundry hamper. I dug out last years, cut it in half at the waist (it conveniently has a “drop waist” so that there was a defined “panty” area) and she wore an exposed mid-riff tankini. Sometimes you just make do.

That’s all my brain has time for. In the meantime, I’ll let my 4yo run around the house in her underwear.
Christa
August 6th, 2009 @ 4:04 pm

I love this blog- my favorite one liner thuse far, “I don’t have a testimony of sleeves.” That was awesome.

I have two girls and I serve in YW. I joined the church when I was 16 and I was very inmodest. I agree with Jennie, I don’t think it’s that big of a deal with these little kids BUT my girls are totally gorgeous so I figure if I crack down on modesty now (my 5 year old is obsessed with being modest)I figure if I’m lucky when she’s 16 and smoking hot, she’ll pack a mini skirt to school instead of meth. Just a thought.
rookie cookie
August 6th, 2009 @ 4:35 pm

After reading the comments, I think my personal synopsis is “TO EACH HER OWN”. And that includes her family.

We can all profusely type our opinion, but women are still going to do what they think is best. In the end, all we can do is try and raise out babies in righteousness and gave them a good base for a strong testimony. Unfortunately, they have a right to free agency and that will ultimately guide them in their lives. And as mothers, we can only teach and then step back. And if a mom thinks that a few less inches of fabric on the sleeve of her daughter’s shirt isn’t going to compromise her ticket to heaven, so be it. It isn’t any of my business. Or yours.
Katie
August 6th, 2009 @ 4:47 pm

I am 21 and I have not bought a one-piece swim-suit since I was 14 going to girl’s camp. Tankinis all the way for me. However, at my now-husband’s request, I dug out that old one piece for the first time I went to the beach with his family, and I felt like an impostor. We just returned from a beach vacation with his family and I felt much more comfortable in my tankini.
Proud Daughter of Eve
August 6th, 2009 @ 5:53 pm

Not all stakes ban all two-piece swim suits. When I went to Girls’ Camp a couple of years ago they changed their minds and allowed tankinis. I love my tankini – as has been mentioned, they make trips to the bathroom much easier! And I love my little skirt-bottom too. It seems to me all “freedom” women in western society have in their dress is just freedom to nip, shave, tan and otherwise maintain yet another body part. (Like when “Cathy” tried on a wedding gown and exulted that for once in her life, her thighs and rear were covered. Ball-length gowns aren’t exactly practical for every day life, but there must be some kind of compromise!)

I’ve recently come to the conclusion that the standards of modesty espoused in “For the Strength of Youth” and by our garments don’t just represent “ooh, cover that provocative part!” They represent “respectful coverage of the body through a full range of motion.” It may cover you standing up, but does it keep you covered sitting down, bending over and reaching?

Besides, with all the concern about skin cancer and all the advice to cover up, you could say us modest Mormons are in the avant gaurde! (Not as avant as the Mennonites or Orthodox Jews, though. )
Ronda
August 6th, 2009 @ 6:07 pm

My first post to this blog, but this topic has been on my mind for years.

Two weeks ago I sat in Sacrament meeting with my sweet 4-generations-in-the-same-ward family. My 3 year old grand-daughter walked in with her brand new Gap handkerchief dress on. Darling. Only problem was that it was too big and the sleeve kept falling off her shoulder, and she didn’t have a t-shirt on underneath – immodest? I remember when I was similar – so tiny that nothing stayed on my shoulders – I have a hard time even now.

I can wear 2-piece garments and the bottoms are at least 4-6 inches above my knees – prior to turning 50, this year, I wore shorts that were shorter than most of my modest sisters’ shorts – was I being immodest? I must say I’m more embarrassed by my garments and garment lines showing through my clothes than my garments themselves. I think this is also immodest, but how is this corrected? I’m not always going to wear baggy dark clothes to make up for this. But how do I explain those lines to someone not of my faith?

If modesty isn’t just for the female gender, how about Mormon men whose garment marks show through their too tight shirts? How about Mormon men whose bellies are bigger than pregnant women, and yet they still dare to wear swim suits in public? How about Mormon young men who wear pants so baggy or so tight that when they bend down it’s not plumber’s bum but garment bum? How about Mormon returned missionaries whose garments hang out from under their baggy boarder shorts? I find that very unnerving. I’ve even told some, “Your religion is showing.”
m&m
August 6th, 2009 @ 6:11 pm

Jennie, I appreciate your example of doing the modesty thing even when you don’t have a testimony of it. And, imo, you are the kind of woman who I imagine looks fab in anything.

I love the idea of being modest to regain some of our power as women. That resonates with me in a big way.

Count me as one of the moms who has adopted the motto “modest from birth.” (I have included my boy in this, too…he doesn’t go shirtless any more than the girls go sleeveless.) In my mind, I think it’s easier. It IS a challenge to teach nuance (children’s brains do black/white so much…add to that personalities of some kids, like my daughter, who is VERY black/white in her thinking), but I prefer coming from this direction. I think it’s easier than trying to explain why sleeveless etc. was ok before but suddenly at a certain age it’s not. That has never made sense to me.

This also, though, gives us lots of chances to talk about ‘everyone makes their own choices.’ That’s such an important principle to teach.

I also think that there is more to modesty than just covering skin. I think modest dress is part of what connects us as a people and keeps us distinct. Haven’t you ever been somewhere on vacation and just known that a fam you saw was LDS because of the long shorts, etc? I have. I love it. Jennie’s connection w/ a Jewish woman is similar…I think modesty communicates something about a person.

One last thought…I think there is another gradation of this. Modesty, imo, isn’t just about covering skin, but about being ‘neat and comely.’ How much variation there is on this score, too…on what ‘should’ be worn even on a day-to-day basis. I have some friends who dress up every day. I am one who would rather stay in pjs a good chunk of the time (chronic illness has made this worse). I have been told before that I’m not a good enough Mormon because I don’t dress nicely enough.

While pointed, critical comments like that are obviously inappropriate, I have to admit that sometimes I probably could have done better. Over the past few years, a few talks have brought the Spirit’s nudges. I made some changes to how I dress on Sundays, and in other ways as well. (For me, that means I try to get dressed every day, even when I don’t feel good…that’s an improvement!)

I still think that ultimately, this is between me and god, but interestingly, even in inappropriate comments, sometimes I can find some truth in them, questions to be asking God about what He would like me to do. I find this to be true about pretty much anything. I think being willing to listen to what others think is a good way to evaluate one’s decisions.

is modesty about what feels right to ourselves or is just about what other people think?

So, my answer to this question would be ‘yes’ — I think it can involve both.
anon mom
August 6th, 2009 @ 6:29 pm

Lots of good comments here.

I just want to say, what is up with the size consistency and quality control on the G’s?

Same style, same size on the package DOES NOT equal same actual size.

I’ve had bottoms that have one leg a good inch and a half to two inches shorter than the other one.

I’ve had bottoms that have one leg sewn considerably tighter than the other.

I’ve had tops that are practically half-shirts, with the split side seams well above my navel.

And don’t even get me started with the AMPLE room in front and no room in back– like they’ve been sewn backward. What?!

I have a testimony of my temple covenants and I am faithful.

I don’t tuck, pin or roll,
but honestly,
the G’s frustrate me to no end.

(ps – tankinis are a dream for the slim long-waisted girl. No more buying a too large one piece so it will fit a long body. And # 36, I completely agree about the practicality of tankinis as well.)
pinkpatent
August 6th, 2009 @ 9:07 pm

I think modesty is an attitude. A person can be covered head to toe and still be immodest in behaviour or speech. Not to mention the fact that no matter what you wear, it will turn somebody on and turn somebody else off. The sad thing about all of this is the idea that if modesty is a good thing, then crazy-uber-modesty must be a GREAT thing.

What the heck? When did my fellow mormons start becoming so gosh darn judgemental and self righteous? When did the shoulder become an occasion to sin? Why on earth should I feel compelled to check a booklet before purchasing my 13 year old daughter an item of clothing? I know modesty when I see it.

I guess my biggest beef here is that tankinis have absolutely NOTHING to do with being a follower of Jesus Christ! And those girls who push the limits with their attire, aren’t those the VERY girls we WANT attending as many church activities as possible? Come on sisters, we (and our dear daughters) are WAY more than just female bodies!
another anon
August 6th, 2009 @ 9:35 pm

Fun discussion–I chuckle at your lack of testimony of sleeves, Jennie. I wore short shorts and tanks before going to the Y because it was not talked down then, but the transition was still easy, because I understood the principle. Interesting, though . . . when some missionaries came over and I was dressed like that, I covered up, because I still knew it wasn’t really modest.

My quick thoughts on a few above comments:

I want a tankini. They are way more modest than a lot of one-piecers.

I will also teach my children to follow the Strength of Youth Pamphlet (and hope they follow what we teach).

I think pregnant women in bikinis are beautiful.

I prefer to look “lovely” or “beautiful” rather than “sexy” (except for my husband, of course). I had a shirt I knew was sexy and was grateful my boyfriend at the time was bold enough to ask me not to wear it around him. It was a good lesson.

Sometimes long shorts over swimsuits is not a modesty issue, but all about shaving. If someone is willing to pay to have my whole upper legs de-furred, I’d be done with the shorts.

I love the additional comments about modesty not just being about covering our skin.

M&m, really? Someone said you weren’t a good enough Mormon because you didn’t dress up enough? Good grief.

What is it with g-bottoms that can be pulled up over my none-too-small breasts?

In case any of my comments leave anyone in doubt, I am a fan of modesty. I think the guidelines are wise and I hope to be able to teach my children well (I appreciate all the nuances Justine described in that process).
Lindsay1138
August 6th, 2009 @ 10:18 pm

Tankinis rule and I will never go back to a one piece! Do you hear me, never!

And while we’re on the subject, if your clothes are super tight you aren’t really dressing modestly. Even if you have on sleeves.

Somedays I really miss sleeveless shirts. I can’t be the only one.
pinkpatent
August 6th, 2009 @ 10:29 pm

As a wakeboarder, I have to agree that 2 piece swimming suits are way better (and way more modest) than one piece suits. When you are at the lake, sometimes the only bathroom is a lousy outhouse with no lock on the door. Pulling a one piece suit down to your ankles exposes way too much for me! Tankinis rule.
Mrs. Organic
August 6th, 2009 @ 10:43 pm

Just chiming in with #36. I hated the vulnerable feeling when visiting the ladies room in a one piece – now I use a tankini. Far more coverage.
Cindy
August 6th, 2009 @ 11:12 pm

I don’t comment often, but I want to chime in here with my less popular opinion. I don’t dress my children like they have been through the temple. I don’t dress them like little hoochie mamas, either. I dress them like children. We live in the south and sometimes sleeveless tank tops and shorts are the order of the day. They wear sleeveless dresses around the house and to church.

My oldest daughter dressed the same. She wore cute clothes that were appropriate for her age. She wore skorts and shorts that were somewhere in between short and knee length. She always looked cute and felt good about herself. We always talked about what being married in the temple meant, and as she got older her clothes moved more towards clothes that would be ok with garments. She had no problem transitioning to garments when she got married last year.

Recently I noticed that one of my friend’s teenage daughters were always wearing huge basketball shorts. I made some comment and my friend said that she had decided that her daughters would always wear clothing that would cover garments because she didn’t want them to “freak out” (her description) when they went through the temple. At the same time, her daughters wear their tshirts much tighter than I am comfortable with.

I think that the most important thing here is that we who are wearing garments wear them with respect, and that we follow the spirit in making decisions for our families without being judgmental about other people’s decisions…
April
August 6th, 2009 @ 11:21 pm

I love all the comments! I’m glad to see I am not alone in navigating proper dress codes with young girls in my house. I love tankinis they fit my girls better and they don’t have to pull the whole thing off to use the bathroom. I see plenty of girls in one piece bathing suits that hang way to low! I think it is important to teach our girls to be modest, let’s face it though we are much to hard on each other. Personal modesty is something that grows with your testimony. Forcing very strict guidlines takes away agency. I wish we could be more mindfull of each other and our own personal progress. And this modesty discussion does seem to swing too far to one side, what about those boys? : )
m&m
August 7th, 2009 @ 12:11 am

Personal modesty is something that grows with your testimony.

Or at least, just like everything else, principles like this can be a process. I’m not sure it’s always tied directly to one’s testimony in a linear way…like Jennie said, sometimes we have testimonies of certain principles before we have testimonies of others. I think sometimes some of us have certain things that we just have to take on faith, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that we are less faithful…we each just have our things, our struggles — and our strengths.

M&m, really? Someone said you weren’t a good enough Mormon because you didn’t dress up enough? Good grief.

Not in so many words, but you know how sometimes we can be judgmental in our own insecurity, or about what we don’t understand? I think that was what was going on. I imagine we have each had that kind of thing happen at one time or another, with one thing or another (ah, the joys of associating with imperfect humans). (If we were all honest, I imagine we’ve probably all thought something like that at one time or another, even if we didn’t vocalize it — ah, the joys of BEING imperfect humans! )

I guess some of my point was, though, to Jennie’s question — I think in our own insecurity (and even in our own earnest desires to do what is right) we can sometimes be very quick to dismiss anyone’s comment that isn’t kind (or that may even feel unkind) – or even to dismiss feedback of any sort. Anything that threatens our sense of well-being or our personal revelatory space can put up defenses. In this example, my initial impulse was to think, “Well, how I dress is none of your business.” And on one hand, how I dress really is no one’s business. But I have also realized that how my dress affects others or reflects on the Church, imo, should not be dismissed completely in my decision-making. There’s a fine line there that I’m mulling over. …Sometimes there is truth even in criticism or judgmental comments and/or in others’ experiences and perspectives. That doesn’t justify criticism or judgment, but neither does the criticism justify me ignoring truth that I may need to consider about changes I may need to make. The key, I think, is to go to God to know what to listen to and what to ignore. (I’m not always so good at that, though.)

I don’t call myself mulling and musing for nothing….
Lisa D
August 7th, 2009 @ 12:27 am

After years of frustration with one piece suits which revealed too much (don’t even get me started on the BYU swimsuits!), I switched to a tankini and board shorts and have never looked back! They cover way more skin than my one pieces ever did, and as previous posters have mentioned, allow for greater ease and modesty when changing or going to the bathroom.

This all reminds me of the BYU testing center incident back in the day when jeans were not allowed. A woman in jeans who was denied access to the center went to the bathroom, removed the jeans, buttoned her coat up over her bare legs and underpants, and was duly admitted to take her exam. I’m all for modesty, but sometimes in our zeal, we lose sight of how to apply true principles with wisdom.
Paula
August 7th, 2009 @ 1:03 am

I’m going to defend anon (#9) and her pedophile comment. I don’t post pictures of my girls in their swimsuits on my blog. I think she’s got a point. Pedophiles and tweens in immodest clothing? A valid concern. And was similarly surprised to see the statement “I think it’s dumb for girls to have to dress like they are already wearing garments.” I read the author’s defense of her statement and am not angry or upset by any means, but I don’t really see what the big deal is about being modest.

I grew up in Hawaii where it is certainly humid enough to stretch the limits of modesty, but the LDS population of all ages overwhelmingly chose to wear shirts with sleeves and modest, knee-length shorts. Modest dress isn’t something I had to gear up for when endowed or get bent outta shape about when shopping. I wonder if pining for immodest clothing at the mall but settling for shade skin-tight cap sleeve tops and pinning garments with shorts is a regional/cultural thing.
Paula
August 7th, 2009 @ 1:35 am

I had two thoughts about boys being modest. First, I try not to let my boys run around with their shirts off. I don’t think it’s immodest. But I remember being very young and not understanding why my brothers could run around the neighborhood shirtless and I couldn’t. (Which reminds me, did you hear about the topless car wash in Moscow, Idaho?) LOL

My second thought about boys and modesty: Society’s focus on a woman’s appearance is influenced by sexuality. Visual images are more closely associated with male arousal than female.

Ah, the chore of being the fairer sex!
Marti
August 7th, 2009 @ 6:56 am

Jennie quoted the strength for youth handbook which says for the girls shoulders to be covered, that left up to personal interpretation. In that same quote it ask the question “Would I feel comfortable with my appearance if I were in the Lord’s presence?” For me, I would feel way more comfortable in a tankini than a one piece. I’m the camp leader that tries to get a modest swimsuit rule whether it be one or two piece! It comes down to you and what you feel in your heart. If you think your daughter shouldn’t wear something, she probably shouldn’t. Let’s not be so judgemental of others.
On a lighter note, we received an email from the YW secratary about the dress code for an upcoming dance. She told the girls to bend over in front of a mirror before they left to make sure no cleavage was showing. Sorry, but found that a little strange. We now have a motto in our home: CTR and CFC(check for cleavage), which if we found some in our house we’d probably be excited.
Jennie
August 7th, 2009 @ 8:08 am

Marti–I’d feel a lot more comfortable in front of the Lord than in front of some of the people in my ward who tend to judge a bit zealously.
Kim
August 7th, 2009 @ 8:35 am

The comment about the basketball shorts (#50) made me remember that when I went to BYU, and had to suddenly make sure that all my shorts were to my knees, I suddenly was faced with the fact that it meant I could no longer wear girls shorts (there weren’t a lot of long styles at that point–its so much easier now to find good shorts!) So I bought boys cargo shorts/skater style shorts. And I NEVER felt as good wearing those as I did wearing my shorts that came a few inches above my knees. I understood the rule, but just thought that it was sad that by sticking to the rule, I was way sloppier and didn’t feel as modest in that sense. I tend to wear a lot of skirts these days because they are cool (we also live in the south and it is just too hot and muggy to stay covered up in pants all summer if you ever want to leave the house) and they are still attractive looking, unlike when I wear my husbands board shorts or something.

But I do agree as well that we need to go easy on each other. I certainly don’t think that the modesty issue is an accurate portrayal of our relationship with our Savior, or indicates the strength of our testimony, not that we should be judging even if it was. And there is a lot of room to be considered modestly dressed, even if you couldn’t wear garments with it–its not that you are either covered completely or dressed like a little hoochie. You can certainly portray a modest attitude even if your shorts come a little above your knee. I see plenty of women in our ward where temple recommends are not necessarily the norm who come to church in the heat of the summer wearing things that I can’t, but they are still perfectly respectable and don’t detract from their or my worship experience. So really, what does it matter.

But then again, I also don’t have a testimony of sleeves. . .
elizabeth-w
August 7th, 2009 @ 9:50 am

I’ve loved reading all these comments!
I would say 95% of the time my daughters’ clothes are temple-ready.
As a person who as always dressed modestly, when I took out my endowments last year (at 39 ys old), I had to give up a few dresses because when I crossed my legs I was worried someone might see my unders.
I loved the comment about the worst rebellion might be a short short, rather than meth We haven’t let our girls pierce their ears yet, so that when they reallllly want to pierce something, it will be that, rather than their eyebrows.
Jennie
August 7th, 2009 @ 9:55 am

BTW, I never wear a one-piece bathing suit–it makes me feel so naked (and fat)! I wear a tankini that covers up my tummy and has a skirted bottom.
Kathryn Soper
August 7th, 2009 @ 10:54 am

Paula, I’ll have to do a separate post sometime about the problems lurking between the lines of your well-intentioned defense. I don’t want to threadjack any more than I already have.
elizabeth-w
August 7th, 2009 @ 10:56 am

Isn’t it ‘against the rules’ to pin Gs? Seriously, I want to know. I never have, don’t plan to start, but I’m just curious.
Faith.Not.Fear
August 7th, 2009 @ 11:12 am

Wow! What a discussion!
A few thoughts:
- Having a temple-focused wardrobe saves money! You won’t have to remove and replace clothing in the long run.

- I understand the blessings of the newer “tankinis” — looking at the coverage of what we buy may be the most important thing. Tankini or not, if it’s cut too low, too high, or shows midriff, according to FTSoY we should pass it by.

- Why modesty? Because when we wear something that doesn’t cover cleavage, or is too tight, or shows belly or bum, that is where the other person’s attention is drawn. You’ve seen it in movies — the young woman with her cleavage showing approaches the young man, and his eyes drop to take it all in.
We want people to focus on our face, and what we’re saying, don’t we? Let’s not distract them.

- What we wear does say something about us — so it’s important that we wear clothes that represent what we want believed about us!

- RE: “I don’t ever remember being asked OR instructed on that kind of specifics of garment wearing.”
Having been there just recently when my mother-in-law went through for the first time, they are more specific now in the instructions about not modifying the garments.
Emily U
August 7th, 2009 @ 11:13 am

Who makes the rules about Girl’s Camp clothing? Is there a manual that specifically forbids two-piecers? There aren’t even any boys there, for goodness sake. Why is showing a sliver of tummy more immodest than showing the fair amount of bottom that once piece swim suits can reveal? It seems so law-of-Moses to me.
wendy
August 7th, 2009 @ 12:04 pm

Faith.Not.Fear, I echo your “Why Modesty?” answer–it’s about where the attention is drawn.

So much more to say, but not so much time.

This is a great discussion!
Tay
August 7th, 2009 @ 12:35 pm

I remember the girls across the street when I was growing up. Tank-tops and shorter shorts were no big deal at their house, but when they went through the temple they had to purchase and ENTIRE new wardrobe. You heard me, everything. I’m pretty thrifty, so it’s possible that I was only modest so that I would be saving money in the long run. It’s also nice to know that I don’t know what I’m missing in the tank top department. My mom stopped buying me sleeveless shirts as soon as I was old enough to start remembering what I wore/had favorite outfits.

I appreciate the comment of being modest so as to be respectful of our garments and not the other way around. I just like that way of thinking. I think my husband was trying to say something like that before.

Modesty for me is all about comfort. I’m uncomfortable in sleeveless (it took a while for me to go swimming with friends – a while = four years (don’t worry, I know I’m crazy) and I still wear a speedo with girl board shorts), but I’m also uncomfortable in t-shirts. I hate hate hate feeling frumpy and refuse to wear shirts that I don’t like or don’t feel pretty in. But I also don’t mind tighter shirts. I don’t have a chest, but it’s nice to sometimes wear a shirt that makes me look like I have a little cleavage. I guess I like to be a little bad sometimes.

Each to her own! I think we’re all immodest in our own little way, even the painfully modest among us.
she-bop
August 7th, 2009 @ 2:19 pm

Having just spent a week at girls camp where all of us were given matching T-shirts (mens style) and were told we absolutely could NOT roll up the sleeves because they needed to cover what garments cover, I am loving this discussion. My thought upon those instructions were “just how long are your garment sleeves?” I know mine will let me roll up the sleeves a few times, but being a leader I obeyed and made sure the girls did too. I just don’t understand going overboard. Come on!

Let’s not just make up weird rules. Sometimes I think in the name of all that is good and right, we as a mormon community can take it too far. Think. And then think again before we speak, and make someone who is following their own sense of what is right feel bad for their choices. To each his own. That’s why Heavenly Father’s plan is so terrific. We each must work it out for ourselves.
Jennie
August 7th, 2009 @ 2:51 pm

I think each stake can decide on their own dress standards for Girls Camp. Back in my day we were known to go streaking and skinny dipping once or twice, so the whole “one piece swimsuit” seemed like a bit of a joke.

Our last Bishop made a rule that all the girls at Youth Conference couldn’t go swimming unless they were wearing a dark T-shirt and shorts over their bathing suits. I was aghast at that! Why do some people need to invent extra commandments and push their own ultra-modest agenda?

The boys, of course, could go shirtless just like always. Maybe the bishop was too naive to understand that boys can be eye candy too.

The bishop was a real sweetheart but he could get a little carried away over some issues. We moved out of that ward as fast as we could.
Faith.Not.Fear
August 7th, 2009 @ 3:21 pm

Maybe giving the FtSoY guidelines is enough (they cover everything — pun intended), so the “rules” don’t make a joke of something really important!
jamesrivergirl
August 7th, 2009 @ 3:38 pm

Four thoughts:

1. Pedophiles prey on children who trust them and who are available to them, sleeves or no sleeves.

2. And while I wouldn’t dress my daughter in provocative clothing, I also do not want to make her think that she is capable of being provocative before she actually is. I think that is just a different way to make children grow up too fast. Just as there is a time for modesty, there is a time for complete innocence. Once a child is concerned about modesty, some of that innocence is gone. I think that should happen little by little.

3. Heavenly Father gives us commandments and guidelines according to our development and according to the covenants we make with him.

I think this is the pattern of life. And while it is any parent’s perogative to skip ahead, I don’t think it is necessary.

4. I think we sometimes overestimate the power we have as parents–or what kind of control we have over our children’s future choices. Even God who loves and lives perfectly has children who make terrible choices. But He still grants them agency.
Anonymous Male
August 7th, 2009 @ 3:50 pm

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: if I’m going to stare at a fit, attractive woman at the beach, my impure thoughts are not much impeded whether she’s wearing a tankini or a 1-piece.
Kim
August 7th, 2009 @ 5:10 pm

I think its interesting that people keep mentioning the fact that you won’t have to buy a new wardrobe as a reason to always be modest. I understand that when you are nearing the time that you will go to the temple, it certainly makes financial sense to consider the clothes you are buying carefully. But considering that there are plenty of people who are at least 20/21 before going through the temple for the first time, how many of your clothes from HS were you really still wearing?

It just reminds me of when I was in 8th grade and desperately wanted a pair of overalls and my dad told me I couldn’t have any because apparently they were banned at BYU at the time and he didn’t want me to buy clothes I couldn’t wear there–which I responded to by declaring I was NEVER going to BYU (I did) and that there was no way a pair of pants that fit me then would fit me in 5 years anyway, or still be in one peice if they did. I ended up getting the overalls, loved them for a couple years, and then outgrew them. And then the rules had changed and I bought several more pairs over the time I was at BYU.
Proud Daughter of Eve
August 7th, 2009 @ 5:10 pm

A thought for those who live in hot climates: bare skin is hotter than a light covering because there’s nothing to wick away the sweat. So it works better to be covered than to go bare.
Rae
August 7th, 2009 @ 10:09 pm

Growing up in a small community where there were not many shopping malls (our mall was a movie rental store, a barber shop and a knick knack store) it made finding modest clothing difficult. When it came time to go to dances my mom would add sleeves to our dress, however, she was not a great seamstress and we were only able to lift our arms up level with our shoulders (cut down on the “bear hug” dancing).

Even these sleeves would still not work with garments. We did the best we could with what we had and I think that is what the Lord expects.

If you feel that your children should have sleeves to their elbows then you do that. It is through our desire and intent to follow the guidance of the Prophet that we will be blessed. That is why the Prophet is not nitpicky, he allows us to find the level that we are comfortable with. He sets a basic standard and we can take it from there.
Liz C
August 8th, 2009 @ 1:18 am

Some random thoughts on it: I’m a pattern designer, and have a little bit of a critical eye when it comes to fit and modesty. There are many pieces that fit the “modest” description, but are worn very poorly fitted, and become immodest in that way. I go around wanting to re-dress a LOT of LDS women and girls… those layered flimsy shirts are making you stumpy, not modest, and that muffin-top is a semi-permanent physical deformity from wearing too-tight clothing, no matter your weight.

My husband is not LDS. He really gets resentful when the congregation is peppered with trashily dressed females on the rare occasions he attends meetings. (And yes, I’ll say they’re dressing a bit trashy–flimsy layered shirts too tight, skirts too tight/short/slit, hooker heels on Beehives???) He expects church to be the one spot on earth when he is not bombarded by visual temptations for the Natural Man.

Modesty cannot be distilled to a list of acceptable clothing, though… it’s really about attitude. I’d far rather see a woman come to church, for instance, wearing a well-fitted pant suit, than a poorly-considered dress.

My kids (boys and girls) wear sleeved clothing because cancer runs in our family. “Modesty” for us means protecting the physical body we’ve been given. My current 4yo is shrimpy, with a long body rise–she wears a cute little blue tankini, because it gives the most modest fit I’ve ever seen on her. It’s really nice. My 13yo chose a nifty 1940′s inspired shirred, skirted suit–because it looks retro, covers everything well when she swims and plays, and had good bust support and coverage. The baby strips out of her little one-piece faster than you can blink, and the 10yo boy wears a lightweight shirt over his swim trunks so that he can stay out longer than the stretched-to-30-minutes-with-sunscreen limit he otherwise is cursed with from both parents and our pasty white heritage.

We don’t talk so much about *what* to wear, but more about what we need in clothing to be attractive, comfortable, and appropriate to each situation. We talk about the double entendres and filthy or mean jokes that pass for “humor” on children’s T-shirts (and we don’t buy them)–they might physically cover the “modesty bits”, but they have an irreverent, mean-spirited, or immodest message that isn’t appropriate for us. We talk about fit versus size, the realities of some fashion choices (once that 13yo understood how ears get pierced, she proclaimed it barbaric, and has announced her commitment to clip-ons and home jewelry design )

My MIL–not LDS, and a woman with impeccable good taste–still finds very classic clothes (play and Sunday Best) for her grandkids. (And she finds them on screaming sales, because she is Ultra Shopper, and I bow down before her in humility–she’s seriously awesome.) It takes some work, but she’s very determined to help her grandkids look as classy as she was able to look growing up, when her aunts hand-sewed all her clothing (birth to marriage.)

I’d rather a person focus on developing a relationship with Christ and our Heavenly Father, than agonize over whether or not some aspect of her clothing is just inside the bounds of modesty. If I have to equivocate, then it’s probably not modest.
Zina
August 8th, 2009 @ 1:42 am

I’ve taught my sons they can’t go shirtless unless swimming. I also bought them rash guard shirts just so they wouldn’t need as much sunscreen, but to my surprise my 3-year-old now thinks the swim shirt is a mandatory part of the swimming uniform, and my 12-year-old just prefers his rash guard shirt for comfort, so they basically never go topless. I’m actually a little self-conscious that they’ll appear overly modest or something, but if they prefer to be more covered, who am I to tell them to wear less clothing?
Michelle Glauser
August 8th, 2009 @ 9:10 am

A lot of people at the YSA conference I went to who found out I had just been at EFY complained about how the rules at EFY are too strict. They were mostly talking about the dress code. You know what? I’m not a youth anymore, but I still read a section of the For the Strength of Youth pamphlet every day because I believe it is scripture. We believe in modern-day prophets, don’t we? How much easier could it be than to have a brochure that is so simply written? I’m glad I have those guidelines to help me, and I don’t feel like they restrict at all. I definitely don’t look like an old woman and I can still feel cute.
Jenny
August 8th, 2009 @ 1:49 pm

Wow! Insightful post, and lots of great feedback. Too bad I missed this party early on… as the mother of three daughters, this is a pertinent subject, and on our minds everyday here. I can see the problem with gray areas, but I gave up trying to figure out why people do things or choose things differently than I would when we’re all in the same gospel boat.
Cease to judge, live the spirit.
I wear a two piece swim suit, and it’s modest. I encourage my girls to find cute and modest two piece suits as well, because we all know how much easier it is to peel a wet suit off just the derriere vs the whole wet trunk. We had the no 2-piece rule for girls camp, so we just sent a one piece. Didn’t stop wearing the other one elsewhere, though. There’s much more, but a lot has been said already. Great food for thought!
Zina
August 8th, 2009 @ 2:17 pm

You know, I was a young adult before my sister taught me this trick, and thought I was the last to hear it, but it sounds like it’s just not well-known: You *can* pull the crotch of a one-piece swimsuit to the side to use the bathroom. I suppose over time that might overstretch the elastic, but my suits don’t seem to outlast the elastic in spite of my using them this way. (I can understand how tankinis are more modest for many people, but with my body type I’ve never found one that felt really secure and modest for swimming. My only well-fitting swimsuit right now is actually one I sewed for myself–desperation can be the mother of acquiring new sewing skills. Believe it or not, swimsuits are not too terribly difficult to sew if you can find a good pattern. It’s not my favorite type of sewing, though, so I’ve been putting off making myself another one even though I’m pretty tired of my old one.)
Zina
August 8th, 2009 @ 2:19 pm

P.S. Here’s an old blog post of mine about trying to find a modest swimsuit:

http://myimaginaryblog.wordpress.com/2008/10/08/taking-self-deprecation-to-exciting-new-levels/
annie
August 8th, 2009 @ 5:47 pm

Thanks, Jennie. I love your honesty. It’s interesting for me to look at pictures of my grandma and her sisters as well as my mom and her sisters, who grew up in Provo in an LDS home in the 30s/40s and 50s/60s. There were a lot of bikinis, short skirts, and sleeveless dresses going on back then–and judging from the others on the dance floor, etc, they weren’t alone! So with each generation things seems to have gotten a little stricter.

I just had this conversation with one of my daughters and found myself defending the guidelines because the “I know it when I see it” argument for immodesty is too fuzzy. So we encourage our daughters (13 and 15) to find attractive clothes that fit their ideas of style that fall within the guidelines. Having said that, many girls’ clothes that are not garment-ready(shorter shorts, sleeveless blouses, jumper dresses) don’t set off the immodest alarm for me.

We just had the same rule at camp. To me, tankinis vs. one-piece is the same as shirt+pants vs. jumpsuit. We wear two-piece *clothing* all the time, don’t we? As long as the geography is covered, it shouldn’t matter how many pieces it takes, right?
Merry Michelle
August 8th, 2009 @ 7:24 pm

This is what I love about Segullah; that it is a safe place to share how we really feel on issues–and that it’s OK to disagree and have different opinions. I’ve loved reading all these comments and it’s broadened my view on this topic.

For me the bottom line is that what you wear is a reflection of 1)how you feel about yourself, and 2)what you want others to perceive about you.

And Jennie, the most beautiful part of the blog for me was reading “Listen,I don’t have a testimony of sleeves…But I am a faithful LDS woman and I follow the prophet.” This, to me, is the essence of pure faith, not understanding why we are asked to do something but doing it anyway.
QueenScarlett
August 8th, 2009 @ 8:18 pm

WOW… LOVE LIZ C.’s comments. I hear ya – and agree completely with you.

I think this nit-picky stuff makes us sound like Pharisees – asking the Lord how many steps we can take on a Sunday and being self-righteous about it. Yada yada.

I think sometimes we’re so focused on the law – we forget the spirit of it.

I’m not concerned – nor do I necessarily want to keep tabs on what my neighbors are doing. I’m too busy dealing with my own little family. I know I’m not perfect…and that’s okay…
sar
August 8th, 2009 @ 10:18 pm

Zina: That’s exactly how I deal with the one-piece bathroom issue. Glad to know I’m not the only one.
Liz C
August 10th, 2009 @ 6:39 pm

One last comment from me (dinner is almost ready!)–we’re not alone in these conflicts about modesty. I know a huge population of conservative believers of other Christian faiths, as well as Jewish people, and other faiths, who are all concerned with presenting a modest appearance in order to reflect religious faith in daily life. WE ARE NOT ALONE… not in the desire, not in the struggle.
meggle
August 10th, 2009 @ 11:08 pm

Love this discussion and all the comments- even the ones I don’t completely agree with! This is something that’s been on my mind so much as I have a (recently turned) teenage daughter, and have been involved in girl’s camp for the last 3 years. The first year I went to girl’s camp, tankinis weren’t allowed, so I stitched my tankini top to my tankini bottom in two places and called it a one piece. No one noticed. This year I went out and bought my daughter a one piece in addition to her tankini (tankinis fit her far better, as she is extremely long-waisted). The first day at camp, after flag, the leaders announced that tankinis were fine, as long as you wore a t-shirt over the top. Aaaagh! You’d think they could’ve told us that before camp!

As an aside, Jennie, as I read your post I thought, “I like this girl”- and then I realized when you mentioned your daughter- “I think I sort of know this girl”- (India’s a hard name to forget). My husband roomed with your husband briefly at BYU, along with my hub’s older brother, who was good friends with your Mister (I tracked down your personal blog to confirm that you were who I thought you were). Small world. I enjoy Segullah, and I’m glad to find you posting here. Sorry for the personal threadjack.
Sue
August 21st, 2009 @ 5:56 pm

One thing that’s always seemed a bit inequitable to me. I am a short woman, and my garments go well below my knees. Yes, even the petites. I cannot wear shorts at all, but must wear capris. Then I have tall friends with long legs who can wear shorts that hit them mid-thigh, with nary a garment showing.

I also have friends who are not short that buy petite garment bottoms so they can wear shorter skirts/shorts.

I guess there’s a lot of room for difference in garment-wearing!

=)
Fairymay
August 24th, 2009 @ 6:12 pm

To #72
Personally, and I’m probably one of the few, I still wear a lot of the stuff I wore in high school. I have simply not had the funds to buy new clothes, even from DI. Thankfully, my body hasn’t changed much in the two years since I graduated, and I chose classic pieces in high school. I’m glad that my parents did encourage me to wear only clothes that I could wear with garments, because now that I am married, I didn’t have to spend money I didn’t have to get modest things to wear.

My husband has also helped me be more modest. I hadn’t realized that some of my old clothes were too tight. I had never though that too tight was immodest. So some of my shirts are relegated to under shirts, for color, with the looser shirts over the top for modesty.