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	<title>Comments on: Is Human Art Merely Relying Upon the Arm of Flesh?</title>
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	<link>http://segullah.org/daily-special/is-human-art-merely-relying-upon-the-arm-of-flesh/</link>
	<description>Mormon women blogging about the peculiar and the treasured</description>
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		<title>By: Merrilee</title>
		<link>http://segullah.org/daily-special/is-human-art-merely-relying-upon-the-arm-of-flesh/#comment-76266</link>
		<dc:creator>Merrilee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 May 2008 16:32:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://segullah.org/?p=569#comment-76266</guid>
		<description>Thank you for your honest thoughts. I too will take your challenge. As a Latter Day Saint artist myself I believe that creating art is as simple as using the talents God has given us (in truth a commandment). In my opinion being human, and creating things via the &quot;flesh&quot; can&#039;t be immoral when we are created by a loving God who is the greatest supporter of humanity (he knows our greatest potential better than anyone else). Of course what we do with our God given talents and inspirations will then speak for us in this life and in the next. I don&#039;t believe that for art to be Godly we need to always outwardly cover &quot;Mormon&quot; topics because I believe things of a human nature are also things of God. To me there is no disconnection. I do however feel that the best art touches on something eternal and reveals truth, truth that we know us as Latter Day Saints and truth that is therefore universal to all humankind. Art can be glorious and transformative. Of course it can also be used to injure, insult, or breakdown the spirit. I believe that artists will be held accountable for this. If art becomes a God in and of itself, a priority over the true and loving God in heaven, again, accountability will follow. Really the choice, like so many things in this earth life, is up to us.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for your honest thoughts. I too will take your challenge. As a Latter Day Saint artist myself I believe that creating art is as simple as using the talents God has given us (in truth a commandment). In my opinion being human, and creating things via the &#8220;flesh&#8221; can&#8217;t be immoral when we are created by a loving God who is the greatest supporter of humanity (he knows our greatest potential better than anyone else). Of course what we do with our God given talents and inspirations will then speak for us in this life and in the next. I don&#8217;t believe that for art to be Godly we need to always outwardly cover &#8220;Mormon&#8221; topics because I believe things of a human nature are also things of God. To me there is no disconnection. I do however feel that the best art touches on something eternal and reveals truth, truth that we know us as Latter Day Saints and truth that is therefore universal to all humankind. Art can be glorious and transformative. Of course it can also be used to injure, insult, or breakdown the spirit. I believe that artists will be held accountable for this. If art becomes a God in and of itself, a priority over the true and loving God in heaven, again, accountability will follow. Really the choice, like so many things in this earth life, is up to us.</p>
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		<title>By: AzÃºcar</title>
		<link>http://segullah.org/daily-special/is-human-art-merely-relying-upon-the-arm-of-flesh/#comment-75503</link>
		<dc:creator>AzÃºcar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Apr 2008 05:28:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://segullah.org/?p=569#comment-75503</guid>
		<description>Creating makes me feel closer to God.  

I let go of my earthly worries, I put out my fears and just lose myself to the process.  My brain never stops working; it&#039;s almost like a cacophony of &lt;i&gt;everything&lt;/i&gt;.  However, when I am concentrating on creating a piece of artwork I can let go of the static that surrounds me.  My creative process is my way of meditating.  The world becomes silent and I can hear inspiration more clearly.  

And for what it&#039;s worth, I love abstract art so much it hurts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Creating makes me feel closer to God.  </p>
<p>I let go of my earthly worries, I put out my fears and just lose myself to the process.  My brain never stops working; it&#8217;s almost like a cacophony of <i>everything</i>.  However, when I am concentrating on creating a piece of artwork I can let go of the static that surrounds me.  My creative process is my way of meditating.  The world becomes silent and I can hear inspiration more clearly.  </p>
<p>And for what it&#8217;s worth, I love abstract art so much it hurts.</p>
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		<title>By: eljee</title>
		<link>http://segullah.org/daily-special/is-human-art-merely-relying-upon-the-arm-of-flesh/#comment-75483</link>
		<dc:creator>eljee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Apr 2008 02:47:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://segullah.org/?p=569#comment-75483</guid>
		<description>I believe Elder Packer has made comments about avoiding Bach.  The hymns aren&#039;t the issue, it&#039;s the preludes and fugues used as postlude.  In our culture they are &quot;concert music&quot;, but in reality they are sacred music written for sacred settings. However, it is also true that sometimes things written for one setting don&#039;t work in another setting, and I think that is true for this music--not just because it&#039;s Lutheran.  You have to understand the context of the work to feel the spirit that it brings, and most member of our congregations wouldn&#039;t, so it wouldn&#039;t be the same sacred experience for them that it would be for me.  I know that is why the hymns-only movement has been so strong.  And, I do agree with that.  I think it&#039;s an important compromise.  Otherwise, I&#039;d be stuck listening to Mormon pop in sacrament meeting, which would totally destroy the spirit for me.

However, there is definitely a conflict for me between the music I hear in church, which &quot;should&quot; be the ultimate in invoking a sacred experience for me, and the music I&#039;ve studied, which I don&#039;t hear in church, but which does provide for me the profound experiences that touch me most deeply and help me feel closer to God.  The music I hear in my ward does nothing for me spiritually.  Hymns can move me deeply, but that tends to happen mainly in general conference and not through listening to my ward organist or ward choir stumble through them.  Even if I am feeling compassionate and empathetic toward the ward organist or choir director who are truly giving the Widow&#039;s Mite and serving in callings that they might not choose for themselves, it&#039;s still almost impossible for me to just enjoy the music enough to feel the spirit through it.

I hope this isn&#039;t too much of a threadjack!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I believe Elder Packer has made comments about avoiding Bach.  The hymns aren&#8217;t the issue, it&#8217;s the preludes and fugues used as postlude.  In our culture they are &#8220;concert music&#8221;, but in reality they are sacred music written for sacred settings. However, it is also true that sometimes things written for one setting don&#8217;t work in another setting, and I think that is true for this music&#8211;not just because it&#8217;s Lutheran.  You have to understand the context of the work to feel the spirit that it brings, and most member of our congregations wouldn&#8217;t, so it wouldn&#8217;t be the same sacred experience for them that it would be for me.  I know that is why the hymns-only movement has been so strong.  And, I do agree with that.  I think it&#8217;s an important compromise.  Otherwise, I&#8217;d be stuck listening to Mormon pop in sacrament meeting, which would totally destroy the spirit for me.</p>
<p>However, there is definitely a conflict for me between the music I hear in church, which &#8220;should&#8221; be the ultimate in invoking a sacred experience for me, and the music I&#8217;ve studied, which I don&#8217;t hear in church, but which does provide for me the profound experiences that touch me most deeply and help me feel closer to God.  The music I hear in my ward does nothing for me spiritually.  Hymns can move me deeply, but that tends to happen mainly in general conference and not through listening to my ward organist or ward choir stumble through them.  Even if I am feeling compassionate and empathetic toward the ward organist or choir director who are truly giving the Widow&#8217;s Mite and serving in callings that they might not choose for themselves, it&#8217;s still almost impossible for me to just enjoy the music enough to feel the spirit through it.</p>
<p>I hope this isn&#8217;t too much of a threadjack!</p>
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		<title>By: Claudia</title>
		<link>http://segullah.org/daily-special/is-human-art-merely-relying-upon-the-arm-of-flesh/#comment-75476</link>
		<dc:creator>Claudia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Apr 2008 01:30:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://segullah.org/?p=569#comment-75476</guid>
		<description>Nancy R. I know abstract art is supposed to represent itself. I recently read something that is credited to Picasso where he said he starts out with real life and begins taking elements away. So it is pretty hard to get away from what is. 

I was thinking about other forms of art besides visual ones. Music is one mentioned here. That would be composing rather than playing, although instrument repairmen are definitely artists.  Literature is certainly an art form. Since all writers are advised to write what they know that would indicate an imitation or perhaps a representation of life. 

I know J Ruben Clark didn&#039;t want Bach used in church because of Bach&#039;s Lutheran background. But, A Mighty Fortress is one where the words are by Luther himself and the music sounds a lot like Bach. O Savior Thou That Wearest. . . has music that is also  part of the St. Mathew Passion by Bach. They are both in the hymn book.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nancy R. I know abstract art is supposed to represent itself. I recently read something that is credited to Picasso where he said he starts out with real life and begins taking elements away. So it is pretty hard to get away from what is. </p>
<p>I was thinking about other forms of art besides visual ones. Music is one mentioned here. That would be composing rather than playing, although instrument repairmen are definitely artists.  Literature is certainly an art form. Since all writers are advised to write what they know that would indicate an imitation or perhaps a representation of life. </p>
<p>I know J Ruben Clark didn&#8217;t want Bach used in church because of Bach&#8217;s Lutheran background. But, A Mighty Fortress is one where the words are by Luther himself and the music sounds a lot like Bach. O Savior Thou That Wearest. . . has music that is also  part of the St. Mathew Passion by Bach. They are both in the hymn book.</p>
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		<title>By: eljee</title>
		<link>http://segullah.org/daily-special/is-human-art-merely-relying-upon-the-arm-of-flesh/#comment-75331</link>
		<dc:creator>eljee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Apr 2008 17:21:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://segullah.org/?p=569#comment-75331</guid>
		<description>Chris, I think I understand in a way what you&#039;ve said in your last response.  As an organist, I&#039;ve struggled at times with what kind of music is &quot;allowed&quot; in our worship, particularly the emphasis on extremely simple (as in hymns-only).  There are certain Church leaders who have spoken out very strongly on this topic, and I&#039;ve had a difficult time reconciling their counsel with my own taste, even though I think I now understand and accept their reasoning--and submit to it when I am playing in Church settings.  If I had to choose music that would touch me spiritually and bring me closer to God, it often would not be the hymns (though those move me too), but it would be the great works of the masters.  Listening to a Bach prelude and fugue makes me feel closer to God than singing &quot;Because I Have Been Given Much&quot; for the millionth time, for sure!  And yet I have heard Bach specifically mentioned as a composer whose music is not appropriate for sacrament meeting.

I agree with your statement that &quot;art can be both a help and a hindrance to our spiritual growth...&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chris, I think I understand in a way what you&#8217;ve said in your last response.  As an organist, I&#8217;ve struggled at times with what kind of music is &#8220;allowed&#8221; in our worship, particularly the emphasis on extremely simple (as in hymns-only).  There are certain Church leaders who have spoken out very strongly on this topic, and I&#8217;ve had a difficult time reconciling their counsel with my own taste, even though I think I now understand and accept their reasoning&#8211;and submit to it when I am playing in Church settings.  If I had to choose music that would touch me spiritually and bring me closer to God, it often would not be the hymns (though those move me too), but it would be the great works of the masters.  Listening to a Bach prelude and fugue makes me feel closer to God than singing &#8220;Because I Have Been Given Much&#8221; for the millionth time, for sure!  And yet I have heard Bach specifically mentioned as a composer whose music is not appropriate for sacrament meeting.</p>
<p>I agree with your statement that &#8220;art can be both a help and a hindrance to our spiritual growth&#8230;&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Bigelow</title>
		<link>http://segullah.org/daily-special/is-human-art-merely-relying-upon-the-arm-of-flesh/#comment-75329</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Bigelow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Apr 2008 16:59:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://segullah.org/?p=569#comment-75329</guid>
		<description>These are great responses to a post that I knew was pretty off the cuff and ill defined when I submitted it. I don&#039;t think I&#039;ve read a single comment here that I disagree with or that I can&#039;t assimilate into my own thinking. 

I wonder why, when I give free reign to my gut-level reactions about &quot;art,&quot; I&#039;m so cynical, at least this week... I think that some cynicism is justified, but I can also see the benefit of looking at humankind&#039;s artistic endeavors with more charity and empathy, on the philosophical level.

Maybe deep down I&#039;m questioning my own over-emphasis on love of art in all its many forms, in contrast with my comparatively weak enthusiasm about religion... On my full-time mission, I went through terrible withdrawals for music, literature, and cinema and in fact often illicitly turned back to those art forms because the religious life alone didn&#039;t cut it for me. And I still feel that I&#039;m too subject to the power of &quot;art,&quot; almost to an addicted degree. Sometimes I wonder at what spiritual cost, since producing and consuming art so often displace other pursuits. 

I&#039;m sure art can be both a help and a hindrance to our spiritual growth in so many different ways and circumstances.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>These are great responses to a post that I knew was pretty off the cuff and ill defined when I submitted it. I don&#8217;t think I&#8217;ve read a single comment here that I disagree with or that I can&#8217;t assimilate into my own thinking. </p>
<p>I wonder why, when I give free reign to my gut-level reactions about &#8220;art,&#8221; I&#8217;m so cynical, at least this week&#8230; I think that some cynicism is justified, but I can also see the benefit of looking at humankind&#8217;s artistic endeavors with more charity and empathy, on the philosophical level.</p>
<p>Maybe deep down I&#8217;m questioning my own over-emphasis on love of art in all its many forms, in contrast with my comparatively weak enthusiasm about religion&#8230; On my full-time mission, I went through terrible withdrawals for music, literature, and cinema and in fact often illicitly turned back to those art forms because the religious life alone didn&#8217;t cut it for me. And I still feel that I&#8217;m too subject to the power of &#8220;art,&#8221; almost to an addicted degree. Sometimes I wonder at what spiritual cost, since producing and consuming art so often displace other pursuits. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m sure art can be both a help and a hindrance to our spiritual growth in so many different ways and circumstances.</p>
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		<title>By: Nancy R.</title>
		<link>http://segullah.org/daily-special/is-human-art-merely-relying-upon-the-arm-of-flesh/#comment-75326</link>
		<dc:creator>Nancy R.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Apr 2008 16:17:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://segullah.org/?p=569#comment-75326</guid>
		<description>Ok, maybe I&#039;m being a little difficult here, but I don&#039;t believe that art is supposed to imitate anything. Sure, sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn&#039;t. It would be hard to argue that abstract art is imitating life. Sorry, the art historian in me just needs to make this point.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ok, maybe I&#8217;m being a little difficult here, but I don&#8217;t believe that art is supposed to imitate anything. Sure, sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn&#8217;t. It would be hard to argue that abstract art is imitating life. Sorry, the art historian in me just needs to make this point.</p>
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		<title>By: Claudia</title>
		<link>http://segullah.org/daily-special/is-human-art-merely-relying-upon-the-arm-of-flesh/#comment-75324</link>
		<dc:creator>Claudia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Apr 2008 16:14:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://segullah.org/?p=569#comment-75324</guid>
		<description>Art is supposed to imitate life. Mortal life is what we know. We can&#039;t portray Godliness because it is not part of daily experience. What is part of our daily experience is suffering, sorrow, and other forms evil. So by portraying those things art teaches us what the consequences of evil are. There are more depictions of evil in the scriptures than there depictions  of the saintly life. 

No, art is not relying on the arm of the flesh unless one makes an artist or his/her work into god and it becomes more important than the serving the true one true God. The it becomes idolatry. 

Art itself is neutral. It is how we perceive it and what we use it for that makes it what it is. Not everyone will experience it in the same way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Art is supposed to imitate life. Mortal life is what we know. We can&#8217;t portray Godliness because it is not part of daily experience. What is part of our daily experience is suffering, sorrow, and other forms evil. So by portraying those things art teaches us what the consequences of evil are. There are more depictions of evil in the scriptures than there depictions  of the saintly life. </p>
<p>No, art is not relying on the arm of the flesh unless one makes an artist or his/her work into god and it becomes more important than the serving the true one true God. The it becomes idolatry. </p>
<p>Art itself is neutral. It is how we perceive it and what we use it for that makes it what it is. Not everyone will experience it in the same way.</p>
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		<title>By: Lee Ann</title>
		<link>http://segullah.org/daily-special/is-human-art-merely-relying-upon-the-arm-of-flesh/#comment-75314</link>
		<dc:creator>Lee Ann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Apr 2008 14:58:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://segullah.org/?p=569#comment-75314</guid>
		<description>I was formulating a response in the back of my head, while anticipating that others would do a far more eloquent job--which they have.

Then, last night, I was working on a story. My son read over my shoulder and objected to some of the choices I&#039;d made.

&quot;I&#039;m God,&quot; I instantly replied. &quot;I can do whatever I want to them.&quot;

So, yeah, maybe pride&#039;s a tiny bit of an issue for me after all....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was formulating a response in the back of my head, while anticipating that others would do a far more eloquent job&#8211;which they have.</p>
<p>Then, last night, I was working on a story. My son read over my shoulder and objected to some of the choices I&#8217;d made.</p>
<p>&#8220;I&#8217;m God,&#8221; I instantly replied. &#8220;I can do whatever I want to them.&#8221;</p>
<p>So, yeah, maybe pride&#8217;s a tiny bit of an issue for me after all&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Dalene</title>
		<link>http://segullah.org/daily-special/is-human-art-merely-relying-upon-the-arm-of-flesh/#comment-75313</link>
		<dc:creator>Dalene</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Apr 2008 14:35:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://segullah.org/?p=569#comment-75313</guid>
		<description>OK, I&#039;ll bite. I&#039;m sure my thoughts will be disjointed, but here they are:



&lt;blockquote&gt;real art celebrates and commiserates with humanity, not godliness&quot;&lt;/blockquote&gt;



Since humanity is the path to godliness is that such a bad thing? We are human; we can only create what we know. For me the real purpose of art and literature is to tell the truth--whatever that is for us. As Maralise said, doing so will hopefully create empathy. 

I loved the defense of fiction found in &lt;em&gt;Reading Lolita in Tehran&lt;/em&gt;. Perhaps it could be a good defense of art as well.

That said, it is much easier to apply my perspective to the classics than some of what is called &quot;art&quot; today. I am aware of much that is distasteful and offensive. So I am probably  selective about what I would defend.



&lt;blockquote&gt;friendships donâ€™t seem as close because a Mormonâ€™s primary friend is Jesus, so we all rely on Jesus rather than each other, except as Jesus helps us through each other&quot;&lt;/blockquote&gt;


I rely intensely on my friends. I believe we are meant to be connected with humanity and that it does bring us closer to Jesus. I also believe these connections will be eternal in nature.

Truth and beauty is highlighted to me through what I believe is the spirit whether I am reading Shakespeare (who, you will find, has even been quoted in General Conference), looking upon a sculpture by Rodin or hearing one of Bach&#039;s cantatas.

Finally, I support the pursuit of excellent and honest Mormon literature. I want to read about Mormons who struggle because I struggle and because being more aware of others helps me have compassion for those whose struggles are different than my own. 

Compassion and empathy are God-like qualities that can bring us closer to God as well as to humanity. I think humanity is definitely a stop along the path to God.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK, I&#8217;ll bite. I&#8217;m sure my thoughts will be disjointed, but here they are:</p>
<blockquote><p>real art celebrates and commiserates with humanity, not godliness&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>Since humanity is the path to godliness is that such a bad thing? We are human; we can only create what we know. For me the real purpose of art and literature is to tell the truth&#8211;whatever that is for us. As Maralise said, doing so will hopefully create empathy. </p>
<p>I loved the defense of fiction found in <em>Reading Lolita in Tehran</em>. Perhaps it could be a good defense of art as well.</p>
<p>That said, it is much easier to apply my perspective to the classics than some of what is called &#8220;art&#8221; today. I am aware of much that is distasteful and offensive. So I am probably  selective about what I would defend.</p>
<blockquote><p>friendships donâ€™t seem as close because a Mormonâ€™s primary friend is Jesus, so we all rely on Jesus rather than each other, except as Jesus helps us through each other&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>I rely intensely on my friends. I believe we are meant to be connected with humanity and that it does bring us closer to Jesus. I also believe these connections will be eternal in nature.</p>
<p>Truth and beauty is highlighted to me through what I believe is the spirit whether I am reading Shakespeare (who, you will find, has even been quoted in General Conference), looking upon a sculpture by Rodin or hearing one of Bach&#8217;s cantatas.</p>
<p>Finally, I support the pursuit of excellent and honest Mormon literature. I want to read about Mormons who struggle because I struggle and because being more aware of others helps me have compassion for those whose struggles are different than my own. </p>
<p>Compassion and empathy are God-like qualities that can bring us closer to God as well as to humanity. I think humanity is definitely a stop along the path to God.</p>
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