Money Money Money

Posted by Michelle L. | March 25, 2010 | 50 Comments

I stood idly in the coffee shop while Celia chose a bottled water and fished $2 out her purse for the cashier. We ambled back out into the mall as she popped the lid and took a long drink.

“Aren’t you thirsty?” she asked.

“Um yeah. ” I bit my lip and looked away.

“Then why didn’t you buy a drink? Michelle, look at me– what’s your deal?”

“It’s just one of my quirks,” I blushed, “I don’t buy water.”

Celia laughed, “You just paid $50 for a child’s dress and you won’t buy water when you’re thirsty? OK, I promise not to judge your ostentatious clothing habit if you forgive my extravagance in buying water.” She giggled all the way to the car.

My spunky, red-headed friend just likes to tease me, but in truth, there’s nothing like a recession to tempt us to judge each others’ spending habits:

“Wasn’t Jon laid off last year? Should he really be taking his family to Disneyland?”

“Can you believe she gets her hair highlighted every six weeks when their house is in foreclosure?”

“Old moneybags down the street just bought a new car.”

As a nation, as a world we’re hearing the conflicting messages to “save, save, save to keep your house” and “spend, spend, spend to boost the economy.” I happen to believe both. We’re working hard to pay down our mortgage but I also spend money at my favorite local restaurant, at clothing stores, the bike shop down the street. Few things warm my heart more than a thriving small business where people make a good living from honest work and ingenuity. But spending extra money when you have it and spending it when you don’t are two different issues– financial matters are the #1 cause of arguments in most marriages and are the primary bickering points in political parties. When it comes to irresponsible spending there’s plenty of blame to go around.

As Latter-Day Saints, money matters are also spiritual matters. Tithing, of course, and also the spirit of the law of consecration. Mormons take great pride in living conservatively, canning fruit and wearing mom jeans. I feel a responsibility to teach my children to save and spend responsibly. Our method is simple: my children don’t have money until they are old enough to earn it. No allowance, no payment for chores. This translates into my children having no money until they are twelve or thirteen and can mow lawns and babysit. It’s worked well for us.

Money can’t buy happiness, but it can certainly ease the trials of life. It’s much easier to go on a job hunt with a full stomach and a nice suit. When my mother died this summer, our ability to buy plane tickets and flowers and take-out meals relieved a great deal of stress.

Both my sister and I have noticed more frivolous spending in ourselves since the death of my mother. There’s the sense of “you can’t take it with you” combined with the desire to spread as much kindness as we can in this life. So you’ll probably see me at the corner cafe a little more often these days, I might even buy you lunch.

But not your bottled water.

Do you feel judged for your spending choices? Do you judge others’ for theirs? How do you teach your children about money? How are your spending habits tied to your faith?

Comments

50 Responses to “Money Money Money”

Justine
March 25th, 2010 @ 10:46 am

I’ll admit I sometimes feel judged for my choices. And my attitudes about money have changed a lot in the last few years. I spend a lot more freely now than I think we used to. Part of it is, strangely enough, health related. I see the future now as so murky, that I feel this great intensity to live my life fully NOW. And it hasn’t translated into buying a lot of stuff, rather it’s translated into having more experiences with my husband and my family while I still can.

We’re traveling more, we’re spending more time doing ‘things’ together. Some of those things don’t cost any money, but it seems like a lot of them do. And I’m far more willing to part with the money now than I would have been a few years ago. I just don’t care anymore. I don’t care if I live in a crummy old house that’s full of icky furniture. But I do care about creating experiences with my family and with my husband that will last in our memories forever.

But there are definitely some people in my broad circle of acquaintances that judge me harshly for it. It’s even strained some family relationships, and I only have conjecture and speculation to guess why. But this is my chance to live, and I might not get this chance again, so I’m going to take it.
Anon
March 25th, 2010 @ 10:52 am

Money is always an interesting topic. Last month’s visiting teaching message was about provident living. One of my visiting teachers (on her first visit) took that as an opportunity to tell me all about their financial problems and debt and how it was her husband’s fault. I just sat there dumbfounded that I was hearing all of that. It’s changed how I look at her and her family.

At the same time, my husband and I just paid off my car a few years early and will be paying off his car later this year. But we aren’t telling everyone because we know it will change how everyone looks at us. We aren’t rolling in the dough. But right now things just happen to be working our way so we’re taking advantage of it. And we’re looking forward to the day when we are completely debt free and can give more to humanitarian charities.
Blue
March 25th, 2010 @ 10:53 am

i’ve spent nearly all my life in “denial mode” when it comes to money. and since we’ve been living on student loans for the past 4 years, i feel guilt whenever i purchase non-essentials, but rationalize that life goes on, we will be able to pay the loans back someday, and this is my kid’s only childhood. i try hard not to put them through my experience as a child when i started working at age 8 to support myself as much as possible and never stopped.

but i don’t begrudge others. i know some who have been reckless and irresponsible, but they’re paying for it in their own way, and that makes me sad for them to be in that kind of hell. i do get annoyed at reckless people who think bankruptcy isn’t a big deal, because they don’t seem to realize that the people they owe are the ones who are paying for them…it affects all of us. but that’s another topic entirely.

i have faith that things will work out financially…someday. i’m just counting on the lord for that, and trying to keep his commandments, but not in a barter-agreement kind of way. i just trust him.

i don’t buy water either. tap is fine with me (prefer it if it’s icy cold!)

♥
Jennifer
March 25th, 2010 @ 12:02 pm

$50 for a childs dress?! rofl awesome – after your child grows out of it after only wearing it only 3 or 4 times I’ll be happy to buy it from Goodwill for 4 bucks…. oh wait… I don’t have any girls! Ah well… I wouldn’t generally shell out money for water either tho, unless my child was really thirsty and we couldn’t find a water fountain. I /am/ more willing to spend for something for him than for myself.

On the other hand, just watch me shell out the big bucks for any sort of vacation! Those are what we are saving money on clothes/food/etc for after all – it really is just a difference in what you enjoy doing together as a family (or for yourself if you are single I imagine). If you value fabulous family portraits, drop the money on the nice dress for the picture. If you value fun family vacations, skimp a bit in other areas and shell out for the plane (our family is too spread apart for car trips) ticket!

I do frequently have to remind myself, but usually succeed – when someone is spending money on something I wouldn’t, that is because they enjoy different things than I do, and that really IS ok! My job is to worry less about what others are buying, and make sure I’m using the money where /my/ family will get the most value from it.
jendoop
March 25th, 2010 @ 12:34 pm

It is true that managing your money well and planning for the future enables a better life. And by better life I don’t mean better stuff.

I got married so young that I took it for granted that my husband was a college grad. But now as I have a suburban two car lifestyle I watch others in the church (who are great people!) struggle daily because financial constraints put them in bad neighborhoods, and make them feel that they can’t leave abusive relationships. Their children get less care because parents are gone working 2 or even 3 jobs.

It not only effects them but our community as a whole. Our neighboring branch can’t support a scout troop because too many parents work late and few of them are fluent in English to become leaders. The same thing goes for other callings in the church and life opportunities in general.

I never thought I’d feel strongly about what my children choose to do for a living, but now I see that they really do need to worry about money when choosing a career.
Michelle L.
March 25th, 2010 @ 12:43 pm

oh Anon! That was an awkward VT topic. I had one visit where a husband walked into the room and started telling me about his wife’s bad spending habits– I got out of there quick!

You’re so right, jendoop. Our kids really don’t have the luxury of choosing a career just because they ‘love it’– they need to consider a living wage. Hopefully they can find something that offers both. My father-in-law is a retired schoolteacher and his wife is a nurse. It worked well for them because while neither of those are extremely well-paying jobs, teachers and nurses are always in demand. And they always shop at DI– trust me, Jennifer, my MIL would be just as horrified at a $50 dress as you are.
Anon II
March 25th, 2010 @ 1:30 pm

My husband’s been laid off twice in the last two years. It has been tough, but luckily, thanks to severance packages and the generosity of the Lord, he’s found work and we’ve made it through without needing financial help from others.

Still, I feel like I am constantly being judged by ward members (and some family members) whenever we spend money. We did just go to Disneyland. I do color my hair. There is money in the bank to do so and spending it the way I choose to is a way of expressing my hope in the future: a faith/confidence in my husband’s earning ability, and my earning ability, and the Lord’s care.

These comments and this post makes me sad, because it’s just more evidence that the judgment I feel from ward members is, apparently, even more real than I’d hoped… you guys all do it too.
anon this time
March 25th, 2010 @ 1:38 pm

Money. Love it or hate it, you gotta have it. It’s easy to judge what others spend their money on, but if anyone judges me about what I spend on, it makes me angry. Hypocritical, I know. I have a brother who has lost EVERYTHING. Home, family, job, temple recommend, you name it, he no longer has it. He’s 40 and has moved in with my parents, much to their disappointment, but he had no where else to go. And he has an iphone. What? I was complaining to my father about how that just seems wrong and he gave me some wise advice. He said that everything has been taken away and that it is really his only property. It’s his connection to the world. If that’s all it takes to keep him happy while everything else around him is crumbling, then who am I to take that away? I can judge all I want, but in the end, it is not my call. It’s his.
I think that’s how we need to look at others spending habits…it’s not my place to tell them what is appropriate or not, and it’s not right for others to tell me what they think is appropriate. Everyone has different necessities. And if it’s a $2 bottle of water, so be it.
cmnb
March 25th, 2010 @ 1:54 pm

This is an interesting topic. I know I’m guilty of judging, and I know I have been judged as well. I think most of us have certain areas we could spend less. I have a family member with many kids who is very frugal since she has a large family, and thus has chosen to live in a larger home. Her house payments stretch her budget so thin that she has to be frugal. Sometimes I think she judges me for my extravagences, yet she chooses to spend more in other areas than I do I guess.
Of course, ideally we would live more joyfully if we stopped living so suspiciously and judgemental. I know this, and think I tend to let others live-and-let-live, but I’ve found it hard in some situations. The people in our neighborhood short-selling their large, upscale home for over an hundred thousand dollars less than they owe on it because they took out many home equity loans. Those large sums of money have been spent, and the bank may never see any of that money.
I do feel for this family, I don’t judge them or feel anything but compassion. Yet, I do question the ethical complexities of such situations
Sue
March 25th, 2010 @ 2:20 pm

I don’t feel judged for my spending choices because, frankly, I don’t care what others think of them. As long as I know I am living within my means, paying my tithing, and planning for retirement, I’m good.

As for judging others, I never do…unless they owe me money. Which is one of the bad things about owing me money. If you owe me a large sum but “can’t afford” to pay me, I’m perfectly willing to wait. But if you owe me a large sum, can’t afford to pay me, but can afford some complete luxury or other, then we’ve got problems.

My spending habits do tie into my testimony in the sense that I don’t think it’s honest to spend money you don’t have. Period.

(Yep, I’m pretty black and white about money stuff. Lots of grey area for me in life, but not when it comes to dollars and cents. Because you know what? Those pennies only add up one way. And you’re either in the black or you’re in the red.)

=)
Michelle L.
March 25th, 2010 @ 3:01 pm

Ah, Anon II, I’m sorry. My intention certainly wasn’t to make anyone feel sad or judged. I’d hoped that we could have a good discussion and possibly foster greater understanding.

This certainly wasn’t one of my better posts; I’m kind of uninspiring these days. I apologize.

Oh, and the disparaging quotes? I would never say that about anyone and I don’t know people who do. I was just going off things I read in the paper.
Miggy
March 25th, 2010 @ 3:39 pm

Yes, I sometimes feel judged for my spending choices. BUT sometimes I wonder if it’s more me or them. I grew up in a family that made very poor money decisions….and still do to this day. It took me a while to figure some of these very conflicting ides out and to learn what it means to live within one’s means. I’ve done pretty well I think and my husband and I have been good about doing and living on a budget. But I think there is still this worry in the back of my head that I’m being “extravagant” if I buy a shirt at a really nice store {on sale} and it’s totally within my budget and I’ve even saved my spending money for it….there is still this knee-jerk reaction to justify my purchase to others. If someone says, “I like your shirt” I ALWAYS feel the need to tell them that I got it on sale, I can’t believe what a deal I scored and yadda yadda yadda. For myself I’ve learned that I’d much rather spend more money on a shirt I LOVE, than spend that same money on 2-3 shirts I only sort of like. It’s also the same with our house–I didn’t grow up living in a nice house, so the fact that I have a home I really love and it’s nice….sometimes I have to actually remind myself that we can afford it. Not that we’re rolling in the dough, but we can afford it…and when people compliment me on our home it’s really hard just to say “thanks” and not go into details about our finances and explain that we’re not living outside our means, etc. So for me, I feel like my worries about being judged stem from my childhood experience and are sometimes more about being OK with it myself.
Caroline
March 25th, 2010 @ 3:39 pm

I definitely do not judge folks for their spending habits, what I do is probably worse. I cannot STAND it when people I know have plenty of money complain about how poor they are, or want to commiserate with me about how poor they were growing up. I lived in a two bedroom house with all seven of my brothers and sisters until I was 12. And someone who’s husband is in school to be a surgeon wants to tell me she knows how I feel because she too had to have birthday parties at her house instead of chuck e. cheese!

Or we have people in our ward who could in no way qualify for credit, have no family to get money from, and a woman holding coach bag whose husband is a cosmetic dentist complain that they can’t afford their trip to Tahoe this year.

So for me, the worst thing about the church’s counsel on provident living is the liars it makes out people.
Michelle Glauser
March 25th, 2010 @ 4:13 pm

I don’t buy water either. And I don’t pay to use the toilet. Ever. And I live in Germany. (In other words, that’s amazing.)

Do you know what? I haven’t really ever spent money on extravagant things. In fact, I have such crazy buyer’s guilt that my family is constantly making jokes about my thriftiness. But some day I hope to have enough money that I can have some nice things instead of just making do with whatever I can find that is free or almost free–like the sheets on my bed from members in my ward, or the cheapest mattress I could find at the store, or the ugly bookshelves that were already here when I moved in and that squeak and have doors that don’t close all the way. Or the broken coffee table that I will never replace because it still does its job . . . is that selfish of me to hope to have nice things? Should I always save my money? Should I give up nice things so I can donate to others?
Matt
March 25th, 2010 @ 4:46 pm

What an incredibly complex subject. When I was young, my mother desperately needed an organ transplant for which we needed to raise a lot of money, just to qualify to get on the waiting list. And she didn’t have very long to wait. I frequently found myself thinking that if one or two of “those rich people” could just make do with one less walnut-paneled bathroom, or forgo one of their semi-annual trips to Europe, (or insert-other-extravagance-here), my mom could get the treatment she needed. Even though I realized that things weren’t that simple, I became a little judgmental where money was concerned.

Fast forward several years, and I was attending a mission reunion. A Brazilian friend and I left together so that I could give him a ride home. As we got into my car, he commented that all of his American companions came home from their missions, bought (or received) cars, started right into school, and were well on their way to the good life.

I immediately thought of another missionary we knew who had left the mission president’s home at the end of his mission and caught a taxi to a nearby slum where his family had moved a few months earlier.

For me, these experiences show me how difficult money conversations–particularly those held with a wide variety of people–are because everything is so relative. To my friend, the bare bones (my words) truck I was driving seemed like the height of luxury. He might think the same of my home, or my discretionary purchases.

Now, would my 10-year-old self have thought that I was spending my money wisely? Well, it might be kind of relative….
wendy
March 25th, 2010 @ 5:25 pm

I TRY to not judge, but sometimes I do. I judge much less than I used to, so I feel good about that.

If we are judged for any of our spending habits, it’s one of two things: being too frugal, or the other side of that coin, going out to dinner too much. I am mostly comfortable and grateful for our used furniture, old car, mediocre house, etc., etc. Mostly. I would like a FEW nicer things sometimes, but some things are hard to justify.

At the same time, I’ve been thinking for a while along the lines of what Justine said. Some story from conference or sometime about a woman who had some dress or something (how do you like my detail-specific memory?) that she was saving for a special occasion, but she died before she ever used it, struck me I while back. We’ve had to live frugally for so long that we’ve gotten into a scarcity mentality. We have passed up (or not even sought out) many fun things that we could’ve afforded or made a way to happen, in the name of frugality. And we have REALLY needed a little not-free fun.

So . . . I’ve been thinking that time is short, there are no guarantees, and it’s time to loosen up about some things. I still don’t need a fantastic wardrobe or fancy furniture, house or car. We’ll probably live on the poor side of town for years to come. But we are going to be making some changes in our attitude and lifestyle.
m&m
March 25th, 2010 @ 5:36 pm

Complex topic indeed.

I think another layer of this can include the passion about helping the poor. Does helping the poor include never having something nice yourself?

There is so much to be balanced in our choices.

I tend to look at the Church as a model. They are careful with investments, but willing to spend where spending makes sense, and spending in a balanced way from building sacred temples to helping the poor to building up businesses that can sustain other efforts like building up the downtown SLC area to be a beautiful, thriving place.

I like this from Pres. Hinckley:

” I am satisfied that the Father of us all does not wish His children to walk in poverty. He wants them to have comforts and some of the good things of the earth. In the Old Testament, He speaks of “a land flowing with milk and honey,” of the fatlings of the flock, and of other things which indicate that He would have His children properly fed and clothed and sheltered, enjoying the comforts that come of the earth, but not to excess.

“It is when greed takes over, when we covet that which others have, that our affliction begins. And it can be a very sore and painful affliction.”

I think that judging can make us miserable, too. But I think some of why that happens sometimes is that there is no easy answer for how to approach these issues and it’s all too easy to think that our own approach is the right approach. I appreciated that story from above about the brother with the iPhone. I think it illustrates that we just never know where others are. And besides, if they are having financial struggles, they are miserable enough. They don’t need others looking down on them on top of that.
sunny
March 25th, 2010 @ 5:43 pm

I remember a professor once talking about the way he and his wife lived in grad school. They had almost no furniture. When people came to visit they had the choice of a bean bag or the floor. They didn’t really have any nice things. However, they had season tickets to the symphony and tickets to Broadway plays they really wanted to see. They also had art on the walls. This was the choice that made them happiest.

He spoke of being looked down on at times for their living conditions. I’m sure there were people who thought they were spending money they didn’t have on their fancy evenings out, but there was a give and take in their finances that I really admire. I live in an area where “having it all” has been the norm rather than the exception. There is a lot of debt that goes into the right house, furniture, car, clothes, vacations, etc., for many of my friends and neighbors. The trade off is peace of mind.

This post was a good reminder for me to think about what matters most to my family and what we can do without. There are few conveniences worth the horrible weight of living beyond one’s means.
Melissa M.
March 25th, 2010 @ 7:03 pm

I didn’t think this post was uninspiring, Michelle, or judgmental, for that matter. Quite the opposite.

Money is definitely a complex topic for me. Having married into a wealthy family, it took me years to soften my judgmental attitude towards my in-laws and their spending habits, and years to sort through the ramifications of having wealth (and I’m still working through it). But I have learned that it’s not my place to judge. Though my in-laws lived very well, they were also very generous with their money—and they were quiet about it, so I’m sure I don’t even know about most of the contributions they made or the people they helped. I don’t doubt that they will be judged by the goodness of their hearts.

Now that that family wealth has all but disappeared, I am also learning that it is still possible to feel poor in the midst of having more than enough. It’s interesting how our perceptions can determine whether we view ourselves as being rich or poor or in-between. My mother-in-law feels poor because she has lost a great portion of her wealth, yet, by most standards she is still very wealthy. But she is afraid to part with even a penny now. And her life is very narrow, even though she lives in a beautiful, multi-million-dollar house.

In contrast, Justine is living her life richly (which I so admire)—and there’s no doubt in my mind who is the happier person.
Allison
March 25th, 2010 @ 7:47 pm

My husband and I LOVE to travel and (not for lack of want or effort) don’t have children yet. We’ve decided we’ll use this time we have alone and make the most of it by traveling as often as we can afford. We try to keep our trips as quiet as possible because I really do feel like people judge us for our “carefree” lifestyle and the way we spend our money, especially because we’re both in school.

On another somewhat-related note, I recently read Elder Wirthlin’s talk “The Straight and Narrow Way” and love what he said about managing resources. My favorite line: “Even if we are blessed enough to afford such luxury, we may be misdirecting resources that could be better used to build the kingdom of God or to feed and clothe our needy brothers and sisters.” Just something to ponder …
Link: http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=487b66ce3a47b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD
ErinAnn
March 25th, 2010 @ 8:19 pm

#2 reminded me of a story my husband told me the other day: We live in a very affluent area, most of his married co-workers have a spouse who also works a professional job. They have a lot of money.

He and another co-worker caught a ride with a third guy so that the three of them could go to another building for a meeting. They rode in “Bob’s” lovely BMW SUV. They were talking about cars and Travis (my DH) relates how we just bought a new-to-us minivan. They ask about it, he tells them, and the driver says, “How can you buy a piece of junk Dodge Caravan after you’ve ridden in the BMW??” Yeah, he wasn’t kidding either.

Travis said that it reminded him that we are on another planet compared to those around us when it comes to financial habits. We actually paid cash for our ’05 vehical and were happy to take it and all of it’s quirks (like non-functioning power locks and defunct speakers and stained carpet) knowing that it fit our budget we’d saved and we wouldn’t have payments.

People and their things.

I sometimes wonder if people remark on others’ spending habits because they’re uncomfortable with their own, or because they’re envious.
Jennie
March 25th, 2010 @ 8:31 pm

OK, I’m kind of judgemental about people who are tightwads. I look down on them as total killjoys.

And I also look down on people who buy jeans that cost more than $80. Do they really make people look that much better? I think not. Fancy jeans just seem too “middle school” to me.

Other than those two things I don’t really care what people do with their money. Go to Disneyland? Buy a convertible? Sure. Life is short.
another anon
March 25th, 2010 @ 9:05 pm

For the last 10 years, money has been my tutor. Through trying financial times my husband and I have been the recipient of some beautiful and poignant lessons. (Beautiful in hindsight, quite difficult and messy as we were actually going through them).

Because of the length and severity of our trial I started to look around me and just assume that everyone else knew what they were doing with money – because they had it! So I rarely judge someone’s new car or vacation or home or clothes. I just assume they are exercising prudence and good judgement, paying cash, and choosing for themselves where to invest their dollars. A bit too rosey maybe… I just feel most comfortable giving everyone the benefit of the doubt.

That said, along the lines of what Caroline was saying… One thing that’s like nails on a chalkboard for me is hearing a neighbor Complain with all of the effort of a Major Trial about how slow their bathroom remodel is going. It’s not the remodel that bothers me, just the attitude. Inconvenient? yes. Life-changing affliction? no.

hahah…well, maybe. who knows, lol…

Also, m&m: I appreciate your mention of the poor. My husband often talk about our personal role in those lives of the poor and needy. I firmly believe we should not just be giving, but sacrificing to ease the suffering of those around us. I was surprised that some of our most generous help came from those who were struggling themselves. Family and friends who had been through similar experiences were at the ready with food, clothing, and what little they had to give. This might sound weird, and I know that charity/donations/helping the poor is to be done without seeking for praise or reward of men, BUT sometimes I wish we could talk about it more and openly. As I have talked personally to friends inquiring about their specific experiences I have been inspired to do more, to give more. When I hear about others giving and stretching I want to do the same.

At the end of the day, I know I will be judged on my stewardship. What have I done with the financial blessings (great or small) that the Lord has given me? (how I judiciously I gave, how much I hoarded, what kind of steward was I? was my gratitude hollow? Did greed and coveting ever play a part in my desires? etc..)

In short:

“How are your spending habits tied to your faith?”

Inextricably.
Selwyn
March 25th, 2010 @ 9:22 pm

Money is an issue that I’m still learning about – there are just so many aspects to it!

I do much better with my money when I have a ‘goal’. I’m saving for my trip to the States, and my boys are happy to go without in the now, to have more poptarts, sorry, FUN later, there. From the time my kids were tiny, I’ve tried to teach them the difference between “want” and “need”, and to look after their stuff, which seems to be bearing fruit to my delight!

I’ve found following the counsel to pay tithes first, a generous fast offering and be careful with what the Lord has blessed us with, means that – even/particularly as a sole parent – I have sufficient for my needs.

It’s always the taming of the wants that is harder to deal with!
Cissy
March 25th, 2010 @ 10:11 pm

I felt like I was reading my own history when I read Miggy’s (#12) comment. I love a budget…everything is budgeted in our house, including birthdays and vacations and school donations. Though the amounts allocated to each category have grown over the years, the budgets remain in place. For me, there is security and predictability in that system. I know it is stifling or un-spontaneous for some, but it is the only way I know to cancel out the effects of growing up in a home where no–I mean absolutely no–financial principles were established.

I love that my kids know that even if we “have money in the bank”, there may not be money for eating out or shoes that aren’t on sale. My oldest cheered on the first day of this month as he informed me that now we could order a pizza for dinner.
m&m
March 26th, 2010 @ 1:15 am

another anon — those are interesting thoughts about how if we knew more about the needs around us, maybe we would give more. I’m thinking of that in terms of really being generous with our fast offerings, because they help those around us in a direct and real way.

It’s always the taming of the wants that is harder to deal with!

So I know that probably in most cases, our wants could be tamed, but I also look at the law of consecration scriptures and guess what? They include wants in the distribution process.

“…every man according to his wants and his needs, inasmuch as his wants are just.” (D&C 82:17)

Sounds like there are ‘just’ wants and ‘unjust’ wants.

I think about how Christmas goes down around here. The bishop asks for contributions to help families in need — to help them to have an enjoyable Christmas! In other words, we help them have something they want, as well as, I hope, help them with their needs.

Things that make me go HM.

It’s all such a stewardship and tied to our hearts and so much more than just about how things play out on a balance sheet.

Kind of makes me tired thinking about it….
Sage
March 26th, 2010 @ 5:39 am

Michelle, this was a great post!

It is an extremely difficult topic though. I wish there were better teaching in the schools about finances. Everyone has to deal with money.

I’ve learned a lot over the years. Too much to comment on. But I will say I used to judge wealthy people harshly. Now I give them more latitude as I understand that it’s okay to enjoy the fruits of your labors with your just wants and that only God can judge the complexity of that definition.

We went on a cruise and I felt guilty about it. But I was happy to give a job to the people on the ship (and pay a high tip).

I spent a lot of money remodeling my house, but felt okay because I did as much of the work as possible (from pouring cement, bilding walls to drywalling and installing doorknobs).

Attitude matters.

One more thing: I’ve tried hard to teach my 16 yr. old son to work hard, and to pay less attention to labels. I have let bought him brand name stuff if he pays the difference in price from what I’d pay at Target or Kohls. He’s had a job since he was 14. So he had saved up $ for a car and we said we’d match his funds. So he had $3500 to spend. I have to tell everyone that because he ended up buying a BMW! And it makes me kind of embarrassed. My husband and I drive paid for used cars (dents, hubcap missing). So now our son drives a nicer car–15 years old with 212,000 miles, but still! It’s kind of funny.

Sorry for the novel- length comment. My point is attitudes change and we shouldn’t judge.
Sage
March 26th, 2010 @ 5:42 am

Oh- and I don’t pay for water either! But I also spent $50 on a little outfit for my son (then felt guilty and tried to return it, but the boutique I bought it at didn’t accept any returns! So I have a great photo of him wearing it!)
wendy
March 26th, 2010 @ 7:35 am

Sage described my former tendency to judge the wealthy and my change of heart. I think it started when I read a snippet about Steven R. Covey. He was asked something to the effect of, “Knowing what you know, how can you live in a house as grand as yours?” His reply was simple: “The Lord knows my heart.” It got me thinking in a better direction.

I’m really enjoying reading everybody’s thoughts on this!
LJ
March 26th, 2010 @ 8:25 am

I used to really judge others in my ward about the things they spent their money on. I lived in a ward where the divide between rich and poor was extreme. We were somewhere near the bottom. Then we moved to a new ward where we are more at the top. It opened my eyes considerably. And it made me grateful for what I have–even if I do still wish we had a bit more money.

It changed my view. Did it ever.

People in my ward have judged us as “rich”. We are definitely not. The expensive looking clothes we wear probably came from DI or the grandparents. We save and scrimp. We don’t pay for cable or anything else besides the basic necessities of life. The haircuts we have come from my inexperienced hand. We eat homemade food and rarely go out to eat. We don’t buy anything that isn’t on sale.

We don’t really know about the financial situation of others. Speculating only ruins us and our ability to be good friends and neighbors.

This has been and always will be an interesting topic indeed. I’ve seen many people near and dear to me struggle with the church because of money issues. It’s the old “we are prosperous because we are more righteous.”

Anyway, food for thought. I have liked reading this post and the comments that followed.
m2theh
March 26th, 2010 @ 9:15 am

After my mom died I didn’t pay any attention to the budget at all. I didn’t go on a spending spree, but I also didn’t cook many meals for about a year. When I finally started coming out of the fog, I started trying to budget. About 6 months later I ran the numbers and discovered that we were spending about $400 more a month than we made. Oops.

So we are now doing our best to live under our means so we can get that credit card debt down.

I know how much we make, and I know how tight things are for us. It is very difficult not to judge others who make less than we do, have a large amount of debt and are living with a family member for free, and seeing them go out to eat to nice restaurants (Taco Bell is about our speed right now) frequently and have fancy new cellphones, and still belly ache about money. Hmmm….no one is paying my rent or giving me a grocery allowance, so I have to make cuts so we can keep our house.
ESO
March 26th, 2010 @ 9:27 am

My personal cap on a child’s outfit is $12. But I have been known to pay for water.

I too judge the wealthy. I know it is not Christlike. I assume if someone is paying for something (from salon treatments to fancy cameras to vacations to portraits) that is their thing (as in, I don’t think to myself “they can’t afford that!”) but I DO think to myself “isn’t that a bit much?” or “couldn’t that money be better used to send an African child to school (generally about $100 a year)?” I need to work on that.

When my younger siblings went to college I advised them to make poor friends–I still think that is good advice. Poor friends find cheap ways to entertain themselves and don’t make you feel entitled to spring break trips and semester abroads paid for by daddy. Problem is, I now have rich friends.

I am sure they don’t think of themselves as rich. But they are SAHMs and their husbands are lawyers and doctors and other professionals. They talk about vacations and assorted lessons for their kids and shopping and new cars blithely. I sit silently by and feel sorry for myself that my electric bill is going to be late, again, because I won’t be paid until next week. As a single mom, even if I had the same kind of incomes their husbands had (never will–I am a teacher), I would still not be able to feel so carefree about money because I have a big expenditure they never will have: child care.

And I don’t want to begrudge them their little joys, because if I had the money, you better believe I would want to vacation, too. But from my position, it is awfully easy to roll my eyes and feel they are not spending their money as Christ would because I really don’t have the luxury to make those choices.
Justine
March 26th, 2010 @ 9:31 am

I still think it’s all a blessing – all of it. We’ve struggled before, and we’ve had extravagance before. All of it was a blessing. The lessons learned during all those times are irreplaceable. And of course, I’m still learning. I’m still realizing what a blessing it is to struggle, what a blessing it is to have enough, what a blessing it is to have extra.

I think there are always opportunities to choose happiness, no matter the circumstance. And I’m committed to smile through all of it. Come what may and love it, right? I’m going to keep telling myself that over and over until it sticks.
J
March 26th, 2010 @ 10:03 am

A few years ago we were unemployed, and naturally, we felt guilt each time we spent money. It didn’t matter if it was for essentials or non-essentials…we felt guilt.

But after almost nine months of unemployment, we learned that sometimes you HAVE to spend money on things that others would deem frivilous. When you’re so depressed and beaten down, you need these little purchases to brighten your day.

We went skiing when we were unemployed, and Alta is not considered to be one of our Healing Places. It offered peace and beauty…during a time when our souls felt so alone.

I judge too often I am afraid.

But I have also learned that sometimes Heavenly Father supports our cautious spending during times of difficulty…for essentials and non-essentials.

Like skiing.
J
March 26th, 2010 @ 10:06 am

Oops…I guess I should spell check before posting…

It should read, “Alta is now considered to be one of our Healing Places.”
Jennie
March 26th, 2010 @ 10:37 am

I hate budgets!!! Aggghhh! Whenever my husband brings up The Budget it’s all I can do not to run away screaming.

I’m not very disciplined when it comes to money.

Or most anything, I’m afraid.
Kelly
March 26th, 2010 @ 11:19 am

About a year after I finished college, my debt equaled about twice my annual income. I spent the next several years changing my spending habits, tracking where my money went, and getting rid of that debt as quickly as I could. In the process I’ve become a saver instead of a spender, but love the sense of security that my rainy day fund offers. I spend enough time thinking about how I’m spending, that I never give a second thought to how anyone else spends. With one big exception: people who bought luxury homes and now are walking away from their mortgages.

Three years ago I was planning to buy a home in southern California. The mortgage guy and the realtor kept pushing me to spend more than I was comfortable with; talking about interest only, 40 year, and other options that would let me drastically increase my budget. I researched the options, looked at the risk, and decided that those vehicles weren’t wise long-term decisions and opted to remain a renter. I figure if a single girl in her 20s who had never had a mortgage could figure it out on her own, why couldn’t anyone else? I feel guilty, because instead of feeling compassion for people going through foreclosure, I look at them with a little derision. This isn’t Christ-like, or compassionate, or the kind of person I want to be. But in the back of my head, the foreclosures some people (not all) are facing seem like fair consequences for the greed they exhibited in the past. And that feeling makes me feel like a horrible person.
Tay
March 26th, 2010 @ 12:05 pm

It’s hardest for me not to judge family. Especially because we’re supposed to seek family first for financial aid. And when they assume that we have money to spread around. When they could have NOT spent the $300 on something ridiculous and then come asking for the same amount two weeks later.

Oh well. We, fortunately, had already decided that we don’t mix money or business with family. I’ve seen too much familial destruction because of it.

But mostly it makes me nervous when I know for sure somebody’s spending beyond their means. I couldn’t do it, personally, and I get anxious for their future. I keep my mouth shut, though, seeing as it’s none of my business. But aren’t we supposed to be good stewards of all we’ve been given? Isn’t that the point of receiving?
mormonhermitmom
March 26th, 2010 @ 12:36 pm

With the cost of keeping a Type I diabetic alive, our children have not had the privileges we’ve had: piano lessons or other music lessons, team sports, trips to Disneyland. We go places when a)there are discount tickets involved or b) grandma and grandpa offer to pick up some of the cost. When this current recession hit, it really didn’t impact us much because we were already living as frugally as we could for many years. We are very grateful my husband is employed and I can be at home, although “home” is rented and our cars are on their last legs.
catania
March 26th, 2010 @ 2:13 pm

There are times when I judge others based on their spending decisions. I hate when I do this. I hate being the slightest bit judgemental. It makes me feel sick, yet I still end up doing it!

I have found that the best way to go about refraining from judgement against others is by not thinking/talking about it.

The hard part is – sometimes a friend may be going through a difficult time, and then she may be prone to “vent”. I have decided to pray hard when I’m tempted to judge my friends. (They’re my friends, after all!).

I’ve also learned to talk about money less – I don’t need to tell everyone everything. I have also tried to stop from saying little things like, “Oh…it was on sale.” (As a justification).
Anon3
March 26th, 2010 @ 2:47 pm

We’ve been on both sides of the financial fence and I have to say it’s the only way I’ve come to understand the role money is supposed to play in our temporary existence. When my husband was in school I was the primary breadwinner like many of us. Fortunately, we keep our standard of living low enough to manage on one modest income. But we faced some tough times. I remember when I had $100 left over after payday once and felt SO rich I giggled. But all I could think of was “who else needs it?”

That might sound self-righteous and pompous but I’ve dreamed of having enough money some day to give away…and now that I’m in a position to live that dream a little bit, I’ve learned that giving money away isn’t as easy as it sounds. If it’s not done anonymously and modestly and very, very carefully it makes the receiver feel awkward, substandard, embarrassed, and sort of less than desired on the equality scale, so it’s a very delicate and fragile thing to try to share one’s surplus even though everyone believes otherwise.

Emotion and identity are strongly connected to money, sadly.

It’s one thing to be jealous of another’s surplus and opulent lifestyle and secretly judge them harshly (or maybe not secretly), but it’s quite another to have them give and then battle the emotions conjured by their giving.
Cissy
March 26th, 2010 @ 4:30 pm

I’ve already made a comment, but I just want to add that I LOVE this conversation. Where else do we really, honestly get to talk about money and choices and judging?

Thanks, Segullah, for providing a great forum.
Heather O.
March 26th, 2010 @ 4:43 pm

I probably judge wealthy people too, and feel like God is constantly banging me on the head saying, “Dang, how CAN we get this beam out of your eye?”

I find friendships are much better when people don’t talk about money, although if people ask, I’m very frank about our finances. But I don’t like talking about it, and I don’t like judging others (even though I know I do it). I also just figure when people are doing better than we are that they must know something I don’t .
m&m
March 26th, 2010 @ 7:17 pm

I have to say, Michelle, that for hours last nite while I was cleaning vomit off the carpet, I kept singing ABBA’s “Money, Money, Money” song in my head.
Kelly
March 26th, 2010 @ 7:50 pm

J, I had to laugh at your comment. Several years ago, my husband was laid off. A few months later for his birthday, his mom sent some cash and we went skiing. Although, we had to go to Snowbird since I snowboard. Sure we could have put the money in savings or replenished some food storage, but I so badly needed that day. It made that horrible, depressing winter a little bit more bearable.

There was an article in the Ensign several years ago about a family who had lost a child. They were given money by others and spent that money on a family vacation. Many people were angry that they would spend the money on that, but the mother told of her son who would write his siblings name in the sand and watch the ocean wash it away. He continued to do that. It was clearly a healing moment for him that he would never have experienced otherwise. I’m just telling that story from memory so look it up for yourself if it interests you, but I promised myself then that I wouldn’t judge others for what they spend their money on. There is so little that I really know about other’s personal lives. I hope they’re not judging me for snowboarding!
Sage
March 27th, 2010 @ 4:35 am

I know I already commented too, but wanted to add one of the reasons why my attitude about rich people started to change. About the time I was leaving on my mission to Peru (where seeing the poverty also changed me) I heard repeatedly that some people outside our church saw us as the millionaire church. And I had noticed that many of our leaders are chosen from successful businessmen. How many stake presidents were wealthy? (growing up in the SF bay area…most of the ones I knew, and now my stake pres. is David Checketts–previous owner of Madison Square Garden in NYC). So, knowing the Lord used these men to carry out His work, I was motivated to understand why…

I agree that it is better not to talk about money among friends, but there are true principles of financial stewardship that can help, so if you struggle (Jennie, I hate to budget too, but like mint.com) seek learning. The church material is good. Basically, tithe, pay yourself in saving, don’t spend more than you earn, get educated so you can earn enough. Easier said than done, but such is life! (sorry, I do like to talk about this!)
RunnerMom
March 27th, 2010 @ 4:58 am

Life is short. I like to use money to create memories for my husband and I and our children. Having my dad pass away at age 45 and a good friend who was only 32 die of cancer, both were profound experiences that influence how I feel about money.

I didn’t grow up with money, but now we have it. About 5 years ago, while hubby was in a residency program, I discovered Dave Ramsey. He is awesome and from his radio show I learned how to get out of debt. I always knew that getting out of debt was good, but Dave Ramsey gave me the how to part of things. We’re still working on paying off the student loans and we don’t buy cars, clothes, vacations, or anything unless we pay cash. It is so freeing to become debt free.

That said, I grew up a poor girl from the bad side of the tracks. Now I am married to a doc. It’s almost embarrassing to me to have the money. I don’t want a Coach purse. I don’t want a fancy house. Those things are so unimportant to me. What we both want is to be completely debt free and be able to give anonymously to those around us and to family. That said, we do enjoy being able to pay the bills, go out on dates on Fridays, and enjoy simple family outings.

Argh. Money is so complicated. Having grown up without it, I understand the jealousy and judgement of some who struggle. Now that we have it, I understand the uneasiness that comes from wanting to spend it carefully and wisely. And the uneasiness that comes when you feel like some people might be connecting your temporal wealth with righteousness or being blessed. That is just so not true, in my mind, that those with more money are simply more righteous and more blessed.

I could go on and on and on. . . Thanks for this post. I’ve been thinking about this as we prepare to buy our first home–14 years after marriage.
jendoop
March 27th, 2010 @ 6:17 pm

Sage,

My belief about why wealthy people are more likely to be called to GA leadership positions is that they are financially able. You have to quit your job to be a member of the 12 or be a mission president.

Their first priority is their family, and that includes temporal affairs. Once those needs are met they are able to serve the Lord. That money side of things doesn’t equate with righteousness to me. It’s the same reason a Spanish speaking man is more likely to be called as a mission president in Mexico- not because he’s more worthy because he knows Spanish, but because he has the necessary requirements.
Rebecca
March 28th, 2010 @ 10:20 pm

When I was in college I had a guy friend ask, “Do your parents help you with college?” I responded that they paid my tuition and I took care of my other expenses. He went on to say, “HYPOTHETICALLY speaking, if you got married, would they pay for your husband’s tuition?” He was joking, but I assured him that they wouldn’t even help with MY tuition once I got married. When I realized that he was really having a hard time knowing where the next semester’s tuition was coming from, I felt for him.

I wished I had the means to help him. Then I realized that by the time most of us have an “extra” $2000 to share, we have lost touch with those who really need it… or if we haven’t, we just don’t know the needs of those around us. People who are in a desperate place don’t often share it–and when they do, they are often met with judgment or cynicism.

A little over a year ago I adopted a paper route. I get up each morning at 4:30 to fold and deliver the papers. It generally takes me just over an hour and I earn $400-500 per month. I didn’t “need” the money exactly, but I found that I really enjoyed the satisfaction I felt from accomplishing something first thing every morning.

The money goes into a bank account separate from all other household money, and I initially set out to save up for a bedroom set. In the meantime, I have realized that 1) I like watching the account grow and 2) There are a lot of people out there with more pressing needs than a bedroom set. I have enjoyed being able to make a small sacrifice (sleep) to be able to help other people. Connecting the sacrifice with the service is a blessing.

One last thing–my husband is a banker. Being a banker isn’t as much fun as it was a couple of years ago. They have had to lay people off, and that is a hard thing to do. (One of his former coworkers took to mowing lawns while he looked for something to better match his skill set.) Sometimes bankruptcy seems too easily accessible. I fear it may be too easy to blame the big financial institutions when one can’t meet one’s financial obligations, but realize that there are people on the other end of that equation too. So I wonder, does bankruptcy being legal also make it ethical?
Sage
March 29th, 2010 @ 4:36 am

jendoop-thanks. I think you are right. The Lord needs people who are in a position to serve fulltime without compensation.

I’ve also seen success as an outward demonstration of good stewardship (not necessarily more righteousness) that allows these men to serve. I’ve tried to learn better stewardship myself rather than be bothered by a sense of unfairness or disdain for wealth. I also try not to take a position of judgement over who should be in leadership, but to trust that to the Lord.

To previous commenter-I also like Dave Ramsey. We didn’t read his books until 18 years of marriage, but we are trying to live debt-free (my husband is better at it than I am–see statement above about hating to budget).