When three new apostles were sustained as the newest members of the Quorum of the Twelve, church members scurried to learn more about these men and their wives. A great deal of interest landed on Sister Ruth Renlund, former attorney and mother to one daughter. An interview with Ruth from The Mormon Women Project offered a beautiful, humble and honest portrait.
What happened next isn’t pretty.
The MWP article was soon flooded with judgmental, cruel comments about Sister Renlund– accusing her of ignoring prophetic counsel, assuaging her own vanity and neglectful parenting. These comments didn’t come from anti-Mormons or internet trolls; the spiteful words were written by our own people,
fellow saints,
primarily women,
Sisters in Zion.
We have a problem.
There’s much to discuss here, and I hope you’ll chime in, but let me make this clear: I trust Ruth Lybbert Renlund to make good decisions. I trust her relationship with God, I trust He has a plan for Ruth that might be much different from mine and I also trust YOU.
Each one of us trods a different path, we each live with our own set of circumstances and we receive our own revelation. None of us can judge each other.
But we do. Working women have felt judged by fellow church members for many years, but I believe the cruel comments on the MWP site represent the confusion and insecurity of at-home women who sacrificed a career and now witness professional women receive praise and recognition in the church.
My friend Jacque and I often talk about this phenomenon. Jacque works as a highly paid executive, enjoys the respect of her colleagues and travels the globe for conferences. She’d be the first to tell you it’s not as cool as it sounds. A devoted mother to four outstanding children, Jacque’s suffered cruel comments about her work status from fellow church members for two decades. In recent years, she’s also become the darling of church owned universities who want her to speak to their female students.
I recently took part in a Facebook discussion where a mother and business owner talked about feeling alien in her ward because her career wasn’t good enough for all the professional women in the congregation. She received bits of advice like– “Refer to an upcoming business trip and see if that garners some respect.”
We’re in an era where the church praises education and women pursuing their talents. This acceptance is reflected by the women called to the general boards of the church. Celebrating our fellow sisters is necessary, well and good. But it doesn’t mean stay-at-home moms need to feel insecure– just because the church applauds our sisters doesn’t mean our work isn’t appreciated.
Trust me, I know about that insecurity. I’ve had people ask what I do and literally turn around and walk away when they hear I’m a stay-at-home mom to six. I’ve heard every rude comment about my assumed lack of intelligence or drive or talents. I’ve considered grad school and various jobs. But like Ruth Renlund, I’ve prayed about those decisions and for me, the answer has always been, “Stay home, stay home, stay home.” That answer has remained the same over many years.
My friend Shelah, also a mother of six, is considering teaching high school. For Shelah it’s a practical and prayerful decision; she won’t make it quickly or without deep consideration. And although Shelah’s youngest is only four, I think it might be perfect for her family. Teaching school wouldn’t work for me, but I am not Shelah, Shelah is not me. We don’t travel the exact same path in this life.
But we do have paths that cross and sometimes run parallel, and we do have a sacred responsibility to lift and help each other. And perhaps instead of everyone feeling a bit on the outs, we can draw a bigger circle and gather all our sisters inside.
Do you feel judged for your work choices?
How can we decrease our own insecurities?
How can we be more inclusive and respectful? Practical ideas appreciated!
I have felt judged for my work choices, as I have 3 children and I have always had a job outside of the home. All my kids have been in daycare, which Mormon culture seems to have the worst time processing, and it has made me feel like an outsider. Because of the feeling of being judged, I try to be supportive in my friends' desires and undertakings. I wish that I could have the same in reciprocity.
I have to say that I think it is getting a little better. Working women are becoming more common in all kinds of business aspects. As more women work or have more friends that do, understanding and respect is forged on all sides.
Inclusiveness is one of my passions. I think that one of the hardest things for me is feeling left out of play groups, exercise activities, anything during the day, meetings, etc. It would be great if we could do more things in the later evenings. Also, reach out to me and become my friend. It may seem hard because I am unavailable during the day time hours, but with creative planning, I can meet for lunch breaks, walks in the park, etc.
Thank you for writing this. It reminds me of another Segullah post I love and have reread from time to time, "The Necessary Sacrifice":
https://segullah.org/daily-special/the-necessary-sacrifice/
I think the troubled relationship here isn't just between stay-at-home moms vs. working moms. I think there's a relationship that is less visible that may be also causing resentment: women and general Church leaders. Surely many women chose stay-at-home motherhood, or having a larger-than-average family, because that's what they felt was best for them, but many have done so out of a sense of duty and obedience to prophetic counsel. So when these women see Church leaders and organizations praising and validating working women, it feels like the message is that the sacrifice of staying home was unnecessary–and that can be painful.
Of course, as you say, the key is that we each choose our own path and respect the different paths of others. I don't have any good answers to your questions but look forward to seeing what others think!
I think Holly is on to something. I was just talking about this idea with my husband the other day. I felt like I had no choice but to stay home with my kids. My husband said you always have a choice. But my point was if you want to be obedient to God and you get the message that he is telling you to stay home than you don't have a choice if you want to be obedient. It's a frustrating feeling. I have a lot of angst about it because I feel like I am not well suited to raising small children. But when I really think about it I know there is no place I would rather be. My children are my passion, even if I suck at it a lot of the time.
So I think there is some angst when we see the praise that other women get from the church who chose a different path.
I am a stay at home mother to four children. My husband and I met when I was 18 and we married when I was 19. We have 16 years of marriage under our belt. Our first child was conceived six months after we wed.
My mother worked outside the home while I was growing up, and I remember the desire I had early on to make sure I could be there for my kids. It is/was a righteous desire of my heart. Through my experience I have new appreciation of how tough it must have been for my mom.
I have had situations where it was apparent that I was being judged harshly because of my lack of formal higher education. My testimony is that my sacrifice has been consecrated and has blessed our family. It was what we all needed and we have seen many instances where the Lord has given us what we lacked, in spiritual and physical means, in order for me to continue to be home with my children.
I have gained an education of a different sort through church leadership callings and the process of bringing up my children. My talents have been broadened because there is more freedom in my schedule. Those who look down on me are ignorant to what can be provided in life through the gospel of Jesus Christ.
That said, I encourage higher education for my children. I do my best to make sure they have what they need to succeed. My girls will have opportunities to choose to enrich their lives before they become wives and mothers, if that is what they decide to do. If their choice is to work outside the home, they will have my loving support. That is between them and their Heavenly Father.
My youngest child will be attending half day kindergarten next year. I have been planning to put my time to good use. I asked my husband for a blessing and the answer I have received so many times over came back through, "Focus on being the best mother you can be; you will know what to do when the time comes."
We all need to be kinder to one another and remember our paths, while in the stalwart service of God, all lead back to the same place.
Thank you for being able to articulate so well the different perspectives that exist along such a broad spectrum of life situations with regards to this subject. I remember a great talk by Sister Holland saying that if Satan wanted to get to the Church one way would be to cause the women of the church to wage war against each other by being judgmental of one another. I am grateful for the principle of both personal and general revelation. I'm so grateful for the general counsel of the church often reminding us of how important our influence and presence as mothers is to our children,especially in their younger years. And I am also so grateful for the principle of personal revelation that allows us to apply that counsel in the way that best fits our individual circumstances without regrets. While answers that come will not be "a "one-size-fits-all" solution, the pattern in finding those answers is the same. And the application of that pattern will often be manifest in many different shapes, sizes and cloth. As women, it is hard not to see the world out of the lens of our own insecurities. The world is telling us both right and left that we don't measure up. May we all find that sacred space within our own souls to know of the Lord's acceptance for us so that we can then more fully accept and embrace those around us. One thing that has helped me through the years when I have felt that much of life has "passed me by" or that opportunities have been lost for development of talents is the knowledge that we truly are eternal beings. We can and will continue to develop forever! This helps me to make sure I choose to use this short time allotted to me in this sphere in the best way possible with regards to my personal journey which may even have something to do with pre-mortal commitments, and to not be overcome by regret or anxiety over what may sometimes be perceived as missed opportunities. It also demands a rigorous effort on my part to seek my feelings of "approval" from the right sources.
I was excited to hear that the Redlunds only have one child. I only have one child, not by choice, but I have felt judged for something that was completely out of my control.
Some women have to work by neccesity, others because they can provide better than their husbands. Some women aren't nurturers and staying home is slowly killing them, and some women wish desperately that they could be at home with their babies and can't.
As sisters in Zion we should support each other, and not judge. We do that enough to ourselves.
As for advice on how to do this, I think President Uchtdorf said it best: Stop it.
Yes, I agree with Holly. I'm not sure if this is a great analogy, but for years we've heard in church talks from GC on down about the financially struggling person or family that makes huge sacrifices to pay their tithing first, before anything else, even if that meant there wouldn't logically be enough to pay for basics like food or rent. These decisions are praised as faithful and obedient and they almost always include the miraculous appearance of funds that make up the shortfall.
I'm sure there are many families that followed this advice who didn't see that unexpected windfall, who faced real debilitating financial problems because of it, but who did it gladly and willingly because they had faith in a loving God and his leaders, and who felt blessed because the did. Then suddenly the message changes and leaders not only admit that in some circumstances paying tithing first is not the only solution but also publicly praise those who didn't do that as faithful saints who used their god given agency to successfully manage their lives.
I don't think that those who did sacrifice to pay their tithing first would be feeling insecurity. I think they would be feeling anger, betrayal, and a real sense of frustration.
I think it's important to recognize that this is a middle-class issue that doesn't apply to the majority of women in the church (more live outside the US than in). Even inside the US, we act like women in the workplace is a choice. It hardly is. A good 40% of households have women as the sole or primary earner. My ancestors were poor Europeans: for millenia my foremothers didn't spend time looking after their kids but instead directly impacted the financial bottom line. They spent most of their time doing laundry and in working farms to bring in income, and their kids were a source of labor and made to work too, their labors also resulting in income. When the industrial revolution occurred, they worked the factories, both the women and the young children, for income.
The advent of the stay-at-home mother wasn't really possible for the middle class until the widespread use of washing machines. That allowed families to sacrifice to have the kind of status of a somewhat gentrified woman who didn't spend her time laboring but instead educating and enriching children (who also didn't have to labor for income unlike any generations of children for millenia before them).
I know that it is a sacrifice to keep a woman in the home who doesn't bring in significant income, but it is also an issue of economic status. For the vast majority of women in the US and globally, "choosing" to work isn't something to consider. We just work. We just go out and earn an income. This was the case for me, bringing in the only income for the first three years of my child's life, providing his only access to healthcare, pumping in closets at work. No choice. No choice. But I was begrudged by others, I feel, because I excelled at the work I didn't have a choice but to take.
If you talk of choosing, of having the opportunity to make that sacrifice, I'm guessing you're probably white, middle class, and live in the US or other leading nation. And your situation is atypical, but to look at the talks and lessons by other white, middle class leaders of the church, both men and women, you'd think everyone was in your situation.
Alisa, I love your comment because there is so much truth to it. This is very much a white middle class issue and is representative of only a small portion of the population. As I have learned more about the demographics of the stay at home mom and the working mom I have only increasingly wondered how a "problem" that only a fraction of women experience any true choice about can have so much angst behind it. That said, I have been on the receiving end of so much criticism that I know this to be a very real problem. As a lifelong member, returned missionary and BYU grad it was only 12 years ago and as a new mother that I began to experience criticism for my choices, within my church social circle, for continuing to work. Ironically, the majority of those who were most vocal have since found themselves returning to work, going back to school, divorcing with no job training or skills, etc. Only a few are still in intact and happy marriages where life events have not required them to return to work for one reason or another. To be clear, I don't think in any way their criticism of my choices brought their circumstances to them. I think it's just a reminder to me we need to be so careful when judging others choices because we never know what course our life will take and what compassion we might wish for.
I was talking to a female colleague yesterday, who happens to be an Engineer, about some of her experiences in her Computer Science education and the early part (and even latter part) of her career. Often, she's the only female in the room. Men question her about things that they wouldn't question a man about. She's often dismissed because of her gender–even though she attended Dartmouth and extremely smart and talented. We all get it, right? The interesting part of it was her comment towards the end. She said that during college and early on in her career, she was really sensitive to it all and felt like she had to prove them all wrong, often speaking up and doing whatever necessary "politically" to prove herself. But then she realized that was so silly–after all, she could run circles around most, if not all, of those men. She knew she was talented and now she has more experience than most. Now, she laughs at any sort of judgement, because she views it as "ignorant" and " inexperienced".
When I read this article, as well as all the comments, I feel like Mormon women need to adopt the same attitude. Not that either group is better than the other–but simply know that YOUR choice is right for YOU. People need to realize that our choices aren't easy–they often take a lot of prayerful thought, tears, struggle…and now the risk of being judged? Please… don't let your perception of what others think of your choices to bring you down. And, c'mon… why on earth would a Mormon women judge another (I'm kind of referring to the rude comments regarding Sister Renlund–who I find to be a fantastic example)? We're in this together ladies.
Well said–I agree. I wish I could say that I work for my own personal fulfillment. In reality, I work for a paycheck.
I think there is quite a bit of truth to what Holly says.
When I was a young mother the message given from the general church leaders was that to be a righteous mother you stayed at home with your children. I can even remember being given a pamphlet form of President Benson's talk "To the Mothers in Zion" at church on Mother's day.
I am grateful that women are now encouraged to get their educations and to be prayerful about what is best for their families; but that is not anywhere close to the message that was given when I was young and starting my family.
Even so, we should not be working against each other, we should be helping and encouraging each other in our specific goals and circumstances.
It makes me sad that such negative comments were made towards sister Renlund.
You bring up a very valid point Holly. I honestly didn't feel like I had a choice if I wanted to be 'righteous.' It's worked out well for me, but not without a lot of soul searching and occasional angst.
It's definitely an interesting analogy! It made me stop and think.
Alisa, what you say is true, especially the modern idea of the stay-at-home mom. But in the 70s and 80s church counsel did not treat the concept of staying home with your children as a choice for white middle-class women– it was presented as something faithful church members do no matter how dire the sacrifice– we were told birth control was a sin and many of my friends signed up for WIC and food stamps just to keep food on the table. I do think the new counsel reflects our growth as a worldwide church and recognition of real economic hardship. And that's good!
But it doesn't change the fact that many women who made (and continue to make sacrifices) feel frustrated. Still, this article isn't about choice, it's about extending kindness and love to all our sisters.
How often do we base our self-worth on the man made "gilded layers" of the gospel rather than our divine nature as God's children? Occasionally, I'm guilty of it. And I think this article taps into that. I think Julie Beck said it best, "the ability to qualify for, receive, and act on personal revelation is the single most important skill that can be acquired in this life." I think that is the key, and it is something that the culture surrounding the gospel is starting to catch up to.
Just as we are all unique spirit children, we are all given unique gifts, interests, and have unique experiences. If we allow, Heavenly Father will use all of those things to further his kingdom on earth. I think this is especially true for LDS women who work outside the home. I have many friends and family who are mothers and have a career, and they all have different reasons why. This is not something any of them have said to me, but rather I have observed that they have one powerful thing in common: the ability to share the gospel with people that otherwise might never have heard it. How awesome is that! For example, I have a friend who is an illustrator/author and very active with her marriage, children, and career. On her blog and website she has links to "I'm A Mormon". I admire her so much and she is a hero because she strives so hard to live the gospel and be true to herself.
I think we probably have all feel judged for our parenting/career/education choices. I can see why it is particularly hard when it comes from other members of the church. We need to love and support each other, no matter our circumstances.
Such a great article and so many great comments! Sometimes it's hard to "win" – I've been criticized for my large adoptive family and for staying home with them and I've been criticized for having interests outside the home, for part-time work, and for running for political office in a part-time legislature. Yay!
The reality is, this is what is right for me and my family. A good friend of mine says "Don't judge me because I fill the measure of my creation differently than you." Amen.
Elder Ballard spoke about this specifically at the 2015 BYU women's conference. It's a really great talk. Check it out here: http://www.byutv.org/watch/0e9875a7-648f-44cb-978d-8e83e8c55f19/byu-womens-conference-m-russell-ballard-2015
Thank you for writing this. We need to hear it over and over and over…….
Spot on, Alisa!
Michelle, it's always a treat to read what you write.
There's another subtle thing that some friends of mine and I have encountered: having a highly successful career. It's almost as if when a woman works part time, or in a less visible or intensive position, it's understood that she probably *has* to work, and is therefore accorded sympathy and understanding. There's another level of shade when you're an executive, or a high level professional, where you *must* have prioritized career over children on purpose. The judgement for being really good at your work is harsh; the pressure to underachieve to prove you don't *really* want to be working, and would rather be at home, is intense. As a friend of mine suggested, "If I was a waitress, people would understand why I was working. Because I'm an executive, they think it's vanity, not necessity." Ahh, the subtleties of what will accord other women.
Thank goodness it's rare for me to encounter judgement (or more likely that I don't care or notice.) You do you. I'll do me. I'll trust you know what you're doing, if you trust I know what I'm doing.
My mother in law, recalls, with gravity and sorrow, giving a talk in church on Benson's Stay at Home address, and watching a sister who had to work, start crying in the pews. She has never forgotten this, it's been 30 years. It's one of the reasons she left the church: she couldn't believe she'd been an instrument in that kind of wounding.
I like this article but there is one important thing that is missing. I have worked full time, part-time, and been a stay at home mom. I have felt judged at times in each of these roles. I am a mental health therapist and one day a patient said to me "I don't fit in the LDS culture because I'm not blonde hair and blue eyed". My first thought was "I am blonde hair and blue eyed but I've felt like I don't fit in". My point, and the articles point, we all feel judged, lonely, and out of place sometimes. The piece I want to add is then it's my responsibility to change that. If I don't know any one because I work, I need to find a way to reach out. If I feel judged and insecure because I don't work, then I need to look at what I need to do fill that need in myself. It's great to remember to not judge others. We all need to work on that. But we also need to work on being proactive in bringing change if we feel unhappy.
Very interesting post. I know my mom (born in '62) felt there was no choice for a righteous woman but to stay home. After having 6 kids she divorced, went back to nursing school, and worked in one capacity or another until a variety of health issues kept her home (she died of cancer in 2012). I don't think she felt angst about working post divorce, but I know she felt the tension of her interests and talents vs. SAH motherhood in her teen years and her twenties (she had her kids between ages 19-29).
I was born in '87 and had more support from church leaders in seeking an eduction and career training, but I remember a lot of it as "just in case" preparation if the SAHM thing didn't work out, not always as an end goal itself. Even birth control has had more public support in my lifetime, though there is still definitely pressure not to wait "too long" to have kids (and choosing to be childless has no support that I've seen).
I am currently on an extended maternity leave from teaching college English part time, but I have worked as a mom and will probably go back to work in the fall. I have had greater angst about not working than anything else because I enjoy working and have personally felt very little judgement, perhaps because my work has always been part time.
I have friends who have received judgy comments about working even part time from moms who stay at home with kids, and this post I think helps me understand these moms better. I can easily see how a particular mom I know who has made rude/judgy comments might feel cheated by her circumstances and the greater public support for working women. I also think understanding this perspective will help me not take future comments as personally as I may have done.
I agree that women need to support and love one another. Greater understanding of each other helps.
Alisa – yes, this particular issue is mostly concerned with women who have the ability to choose (with varying levels of economic sacrifice involved). After spending a month in Peru and seeing nearly all the LDS Peruvian women working, I was shocked to hear President Beck's talk "Mother's who Know" because I felt it was tone deaf to the realities of most Mormon women. However, just because the issue of choice about working is in part a class issue does not make it less significant to those caught in the rhetoric wars. The class issue matters, but at the heart of the issue is loving one another without judgement no matter what our circumstances and choices may be.
My mom worked, too, and I also felt it was important to be home. It was often difficult for me, but I knew that for us it was the right answer. When our first child left on a mission (this was before they equalized the costs of missions and his was an expensive one) I got a very fulfilling part time job. It was good for me, maybe, and brought us the needed missionary money, but I don't think it was as good for our kids.
It's always hard to judge the past.
I can't help but think that much of these judgemental attitudes would resolve if we would emphasize gaining our own personal witnesses of God's plan for our lives. When people feel secure in the knowledge that their choices and circumstances are acceptable to the Lord, I think they feel much less easily bothered by judgemental comments. Also, it's easier to understand that other people might have received different personal revelation from the Lord. Honestly, if anyone makes a choice simply because someone else tells them to (even if that someone is a prophet of God), without receiving their own witness, then they are going to inevitably feel frustration down the road. Perhaps one of the blessings of being a working mom in the LDS culture (at least in my neck of the woods) is that most of us are forced to wrestle with the Lord and gain a witness from him that our path is acceptable to him. I do know many stay at home moms who have gained a similar witness, but I know others who simply chose that path out of default.
Also, just because one apostle's wife has received some positive attention for having a professional career does not mean that the tides have turned. The stay at home mother is still held up as the ideal in the church. However, there seems to be increased recognition of the diversity among women in our church. I think that's a good thing. But ultimately I would like to see more emphasis on the importance of personal revelation in our individual lives. No one knows better than God how to guide us personally.
I really just want to make one comment and that is that we shouldn't justify decisions with the reasoning that "we each choose our own path." While it is true everyone chooses the path they follow, it is certainly not true that our ability to choose a path validates that path or makes it acceptable in the eyes of God.
What makes anyone's path right is when they are following the direction of God. The Lord has provided some general direction to us already through prophets, apostles and other general authorities. Since it is general direction though, there is a chance it may not specifically apply to us. If, for some reason, we want to follow a different course or feel we should follow a different course, we should pray about it. If we receive direction to follow this different path, all is good. However, if we pray and don’t receive an answer, a real answer, then we already have received the direction we need to follow. In some rare instances, the Lord may reach out to us and give us direction, unsolicited. Of course the decision should be the same – I’ll do what you want me to do, dear Lord.
I admit to being cynical and skeptical about a lot of things, but I do believe a lot of us sometimes only pretend to follow this decision making process where we follow God’s direction. It seems like so many of us in the LDS Church use the idea of a path being "between me and the Lord" as an excuse to do whatever we want while giving lip-service to the idea that we went to the Lord. Indeed, there may be particularly troublesome instances where we rebel against revelation and shield ourselves from any criticism by saying that "I prayed about it."
So, how can I know the difference between someone who hasn’t cared to pray for direction, someone who gives lip-service to the idea of seeking God’s will and someone who has genuinely received direction to follow an unusual course from God? The truth is, I can’t know and to a large extend it isn’t my business to do so. The truth is I should be considering the beam in my own eye – making sure I seek God’s will and then obey that direction faithfully. I should give my brothers and sisters the benefit of the doubt that they have done the same.
These truths though don’t find easy harmony with other truths and that is largely why we find conflict within the Church like the conflict mentioned in the article. This is because it also true that we have been commanded to teach the world (including those within the Church) “to observe all things whatsoever [God] has commanded.” We aren’t just to be good examples of God’s commandments, but we are also to teach the commandments. It isn’t easy to champion a principle and teach the general direction we receive, like the general direction for women to stay at home and raise children, while also making allowance that there are righteous exceptions. Nevertheless (what a great word), it can be done and is well worth the effort.
Indeed, it is necessary. We have to teach principles like those in the Proclamation, but be sure to mention that God may lead some people down a different path. I think too that it is critical that we emphasize in so doing that we need to be brutally honest with ourselves about what is really God’s will and then unwaveringly follow that will. Once we find that balance, we will find tremendous joy in the gospel and the fellowship of the saints together. Until we do, there will be conflict to varying degrees.
Lastly, I don’t mean to say anyone in the article or comments was making the mistake I mentioned – I just noticed that some of the wording used might be construed that way. If anything, I may be too sensitive to the potential mistake I commented on due to my own mistakes along these lines. I just feel really strongly about this issue and so I felt impressed to make the distinctions above.
Carina,
Thank you for expressing something I have observed as well. I have wondered why the women in my ward who teach or are nurses, etc. don't experience the same level of criticism. I believe there are levels or nuances to this judgement including careers that are perceived to be nurturing or feminine vs. masculine/corporate. The perceived need to work vs. any perceived affluence etc.
I also think it's interesting that, not just within LDS culture but everywhere, we have acceptable forms of work. For instance, we almost hero worship bloggers like Stephanie Nielsen or artists like Hilary Weeks or the SAHM photographer but the women who go "out" into the workforce for their employment are seeking less approved means of providing income for their family. The bloggers, multi level marketers, artists and photographers can describe themselves as stay at home moms and it is never challenged regardless of the fact that they may in fact be making as much or more money than their husbands who go to a workplace however the working mother who is employed by a company or organization is judged more harshly.
All of it is very interesting but I agree with others – and am trying to embrace myself – that ultimately the lesson here is that all judgement hurts and we all need to just get to a place of embracing the differences and personal revelation that make us each unique and shake off the misguided criticism.
Wonderful thoughts in your article and in the comments. I read something recently that helped me think of Mary & Martha in a new light – maybe the problem wasn't that Mary wasn't helping, it was that Martha was judging what Mary was doing. They were both wonderful women and sisters.
I really, really appreciate all the comments and faith and wonderful sense of direction I've read on this page. Together – no matter what our current calling in life – we can do marvelous things to lift & build up each other, our families, and the kingdom of Heaven.
I just wanted to follow up my comment and say that although it may be painful for women who feel a sense of betrayal/resentment, that does not make it OK to make judgmental or cruel comments about another sister. Obviously. I agree with M2theH that when it comes to that, people should simply "stop it."
Similar to that: Jeremy, I can understand a lot of what you're saying, but I don't quite understand how you can know that other people are basically lying when they say that they felt guided by the Spirit to take a particular path. I completely agree that half-hearted seeking or rationalization are temptations to be avoided. But the fact that you applied that temptation not just to your own experience, but other people, rubbed me the wrong way, especially when this whole conversation is about decisions that are made for very personal reasons. You wrote, "The truth is, I can’t know and to a large extend it isn’t my business to do so." I believe that it isn't your business or mine to make judgments on this matter, full stop. The stewardship for that judgment lies with God, and God alone.
I also appreciate Alisa's point that the work-or-not question applies to a limited, privileged few. Similarly, several people mentioned in another forum that the whole working-mom-vs.-SAHM debate excludes another group of women in the Church: single women. We should seek ways to support them as well.
Re. the question of practical suggestions, I like the Mormon Women Project as well as Aspiring Mormon Women as forums that allow me to hear other women's stories and celebrate both our similarities and differences. Recognizing the glorious diversity of ways that women seek a righteous, joyful life gives me courage to pursue my own path. Listening and bearing witness to the experiences of other women can helps us draw a bigger circle for all our sisters.
I completely agree with this comment. I feel exceptionally grateful that I haven't felt, in large measure, much judgement for my choice to mostly stay home with my kids. My children are 1, 3, and 5 and I choose to work for pay about 2 days per month. It has been an extremely prayerful and careful decision made between my husband and I and the Lord. I feel strongly that my primary role is in my home (I have gotten very specific revelation from the Lord regarding this) but that keeping my professional licensure and skills current is an important "insurance policy" for our family. I feel confident that this is the correct answer for our family at this time and because of that I am able to ignore any judgmental comments I may receive as well as not be bothered by others' choices. I assume they are as prayed over as mine.
The only times I feel any real insecurity is if I think that maybe my husband has changed is mind regarding the issue or that maybe I've misinterpreted the spirit. Both require some checking in, maritally and spiritually, and then we're good to go. It is an ongoing decision that is subject to change at any time. But, the bottom line is, everyone needs to seek their own revelation, that will ultimately give you the confidence and reassurance you seek in whatever role you fulfill.
I love that you have brought this up. For years, I had hoped that I would attend a Women's Conference where someone would say….it's OK that you have to work. I don't remember hearing one, but maybe there is one out there. I have been on both sides of the mommy war, and I know that each of the decisions is a hard and should be prayerful one. I do wish that more members of the church would see that not everyone is going to make the same decision and it's still ok. I also hope that as more women are recognized that have chosen or been "forced by financial circumstances" to work that other women will know it is OK to do. I worked outside the home for years and always thought I was the only one in my ward who did….little did I know that many women did, they just never mentioned it—probably for fear of being judged.
We need to be cheerleaders for each other no matter what choices we choose.
In my short 2 1/2 yrs of being a mom I have experienced both sides of the spectrum. I remember right after my daughter was born I would cry ALL the time because I felt like a failure as a mother who worked 40 + hours a week so my husband could go to school. I clearly remember one day driving home, and crying as usual, when I had a very distinct feeling that I was fulfilling my calling as a mother in the way that was necessary for the time.
Though it was a relief, I still continued to wish everyday for 2 years that I could be home watching my child grow.
I now stay at home all but 1 day a week (honestly for my own sanity). I am in-love with my daughters daycare and she always enjoys her "day with the kids."
I have come to respect the sacrifices of both working mothers and stay-at-home mothers.
While I continue to maintain that the role of the mother should be to nurture and care for her children, I do believe that part of this calling involves pursuing your best self as a woman- whatever that may be is between you and God as well as heeded warnings/ prophecies from our church leaders.
All mothers are precious be it the mothers in traditional families, single family homes, mothers who create life only to experience the pain of loss, or mothers who created life but selflessly gave her child to a more equipped mother ready for the responsibility.
I appreciate the variety of women prepared for leadership in our church. They show us that strong, righteous women can be found anywhere.
I've heard these comments all the time. I was a full-time teacher for fifteen years. I heard insensitive comments on how 'selfish' I was to not have children. I later found I was infertile due to a medical issue. When we did adopt? I was told we needed to adopt more children. I disagreed. I was told that I needed to stay at home as that's what the brethren taught. I continued teaching until I had to quit due more to daycare and issues with our son. I continued to stay up to date on my teaching credential and also took up writing full-time. Now it's, 'why are you doing that? Your place is to be a mother and devote your whole life to your family.' I've seen what happens to some that do that. Depression and worse. I just wish some members would be less judgmental of others in the church. Some of the hateful comments that were posted after some women were exed from the Ordain movement, really saddened me. I thought as Saints we're supposed to uplift those around us. I had a number of non-member friends point out how unChristian that behavior was. It saddens me.
It's interesting to me with all the comments about not judging others's choices, with which I agree, we're more than willing to pass judgment on the counsel we receive from prophets and apostles. What kind of prophet is it that only says what we are comfortable hearing? Is there even a need for that kind of a prophet? So while we're committing to not judging each other, I for one am not passing judgment on those I absolutely know speak for our Father in Heaven – especially when it makes me uncomfortable.
Exactly. Thank you, Holly.
Michelle, I appreciate you bringing this subject up. I honestly had not heard about this crazy incident with the MWP and Sister Renlund's interview. It is terribly unfortunate.
Feminism, in all its various forms and influences, has been something I have been ruminating on a lot within the last few weeks. I am a SAHM and an attorney by trade, and recently reentered the arena of pro-family policy on the international level. In my involvement I have been fascinated to see just how much our culture and family structures have been affected by radical feminism since it first started taking root initially in the 1950's, and then in a more full-blown context in the 1960's, 70’s, and forward.
While comments above point out the fact that for hundreds of years mothers worked while raising their children, it is also noteworthy to point out that most often this work happened in a context where they were still surrounding their children, and maintained a direct influence on the teaching of their families. With the advent of industrialism and the gradual decrease of an agrarian society, family work and location of work dramatically shifted, (also bringing with it an accompanying decrease of a father's direct influence in the home).
The church's counsel in the 1960's and 70's regarding the role of mothers in the home coincides with the historical timing of when the radical feminists (and others) were becoming increasingly aggressive, and pushing the Equal Rights Amendment, widespread use of birth control, extra-marital sexual freedom, and abortion. As we know, church leadership was keenly aware of this, and felt alarmed at what it could potentially do to the long-held institution of the family. Not surprisingly, this was also during the time of President David O. McKay, who coined “No other success can compensate for failure in the home.”
While I believe that there was some level of human ability to predict how radical feminism and shifting sexual mores could have affected our national and worldwide culture, I don’t think there was any way the brethren could have anticipated just how extensive and how quick that damage would be. No one could have. The extent of what I see on a global scale is disorienting, however I find myself often ruminating on how profound the prophetic direction was then, and continues to be now.
At this current moment in history, there are very few voices who are standing forward to encourage the next generation of girls to focus on mothering. In fact, quite the opposite is true. Incrementally, positive depictions of women as mothers have been deliberately pulled from books, television, and movies, and young girls and teenagers are left to subconsciously wrestle with the idea that motherhood is beneath them, or should function in a subservient role to their future careers. On a policy level, radical feminists repeatedly refer to motherhood as a form of acquiescent slavery, and something that every woman has the right to be emancipated from.
As I look back on the church’s counsel for mothers to remain in the home, I personally feel like the most important message it communicated is that motherhood is critical. It is sacred. It is sanctioned by God. How you uphold its sanctity in your life and the lives of your children will be between you, your spouse, and your Heavenly Father. It has to be, because otherwise our families will not be able to withstand the spiritual storms that are coming.
It's not just an issue of working vs. non-working moms (ha!) or how many kids we do or don't have, but this larger issue of our judging each other is the really alarming thing. As sisters in "Zion", this has to stop. I have felt judged for my traveling "choices", of all things. And we still judge each other (and ourselves) for how our kids turn out, as if our parenting is the only determinant. If that's the case, Heavenly Mother and Father are lousy parents, having "lost" one whole third of their children. (Hmmm — does Heavenly Mother "work"?) The point is — as you so powerfully assert, Michelle — that this ridiculous, prideful (I know better than you) judging has to stop. I feel strongly that this propensity to judge (especially as women in the church) is what holds us back from the full light of His presence. Maybe that's judgmental of me, and I'll claim my part in the problem. Thanks for bringing this to the table, Michelle. It's so important.
You're right. We need to love and help each other. Just like the RS motto, "Charity never faileth."
Thank you. So beautifully expressed. Especially this, "As I look back on the church’s counsel for mothers to remain in the home, I personally feel like the most important message it communicated is that motherhood is critical. It is sacred. It is sanctioned by God. How you uphold its sanctity in your life and the lives of your children will be between you, your spouse, and your Heavenly Father. It has to be, because otherwise our families will not be able to withstand the spiritual storms that are coming."
"Inclusiveness is one of my passions." I love that!
Julie B. Beck address this in the opening session of BYU Women's Conference back in 2011. She said in part:
"One of the questions that I get frequently is, “Is it okay if I work outside of my home or I don’t work outside of my home?” You have to know that as an international, global, Relief Society president, that question isn’t always appropriate in all of the world’s countries. There are many, many places where if our women don’t work, they don’t eat. So of course they have to work. The
question of whether or not to work is the wrong question. The question is, “Am I aligned with the Lord’s vision of me and what He needs me to become, and the roles and responsibilities He gave me in heaven that are not negotiable? Am I aligned with that, or am I trying to escape my duties?” Those are the kinds of things we need to understand. Our Heavenly Father loves His daughters, and because He loves us and the reward at the end is so glorious, we do not get a pass
from the responsibilities we were given. We cannot give them away. They are our sacred duties and we fulfill them under covenant." (Emphasis added by me)
I love the questions she says we should be asking instead. If we all truly understood our individual missions and helped one another along rather than try to undermine the decisions others have made we'd (collectively as covenant women) make a pretty powerful force! I see the knit picking back and forth as one of Satan's distractions.
Oh, I hear you Carina. I've loved watching your career take off! I think the lack of acceptance for successful women stems from pure jealousy. I've gone through stages where I crave more praise and validation– and sometimes I think a career as a doctor or a lawyer or an editor might have filled those desires. But whenever I'm envious, I know I'm in a bad place. It's an ugly feeling. Not charitable.
I get what you're saying Jeremy. We need to be brutally honest with ourselves when seeking revelation, and accepting of others.
Thanks Montserrat. I always love your comments.
I missed where anyone was passing judgement on our leaders? There are principles and then there is how they are put into practice. The practice will look different for every family. My understanding from our leaders is that each ward, family, individual, etc needs to adapt the principles to their own situation.
I feel every day the separation between myself (one of the few mothers with younger children who work full time) and the rest of the women in the ward. Most of the fun things that women in the ward do happen during the day. Lunch dates that are too far out for me to attend. Book discussion groups that happen only while I am at work. Play dates, etc. Also to add insult to injury, I have also gone through a divorce and been remarried, have a blended family of kids who spend part of the time with us and part with their other parents. My ward particularly has NO CLUE how to understand or show this as something that happens. They do their best but it is awkward when my Step-Son bristles or corrects someone calling me his Mom (he is 9 I have been Step Mom for a year in time I am sure this will get better but I do not force it).
I work not because it is my passion or because I want to. I work because I HAVE to. I am putting my husband through school right now so that maybe someday I can stay home with our kids in the future. Most of the married women in the Ward have husbands who are Doctors or Aspiring doctors. There is a divide not only with those who work and those who "don't", but income gaps are very telling in our ward.
I think as a general rule it is still the expectation that a woman will stay home and care for her children. The church is making strides to accept the FACT that for some woman being home just can not happen. But honestly I think the hardest transition is going to be with the people of the church.
Women who stay at home look at a working woman and judge her for not being frugal enough, dedicated enough or loving her children enough to stay home. Or for the ones who work looking at the others and discounting the work they actually put in during the day. We need to follow some very wise counsel and "Stop it!"
I'm a professional woman with no kids, and I'm OFTEN accused of putting my career before my family by people who don't know anything about me. They don't know about my struggles with fertility – they don't know the years spent in tears because nothing worked. It's kind of like, "Damned if you do, damned if you don't" – why are we so judgmental? How come we can't be free and encouraged to follow our own path and celebrate each other's successes? This article resonated soundly with me – and I'm grateful to know there are others out there who believe the same way I do, and it's not a detriment to our faith.
This issue sickens me. We are not to judge the choices of others. We are to live and support one another. I appreciate the author's approach. Also for those who are busy finding fault with each other may I reference you to president uchtdorf's talk "stop it"
Sometimes I feel I have a "get out of jail free" card, because I'm divorced so the view is "you HAVE to work", and the conversation moves on to other topics. Friends (and I did too, years ago when married) struggle with the should I, shouldn't I, if/then/else decisions that come with parenting, working, and working out just what is best for individual families. It's a tough call, regardless of where you are or want to be on the "work" spectrum. Whatever the "work" answer is, wherever the work is, there is so much more to people than that single little box.
I'm sometimes jealous of stay-at-home Mums, because many can go to the school carnival, help out in classrooms, be with sick kids… because I do have to work, and I can't do everything. I get insecure wondering if I'm doing the best I can as a mum, especially with working and sole parenting and and and… I sleep with my insecurities, just as much as I sleep with my hopes and best intentions, I just have to give myself encouragement that I'm giving more weight and attention to the hopes and efforts than the doubts. The insecurities can stay under the pillow while I get on with my day, and encourage my friends when they are being weighed down with theirs. Cheerleading myself (and others) is an important way of minimising my insecurities for the most part.
You asked for practical ideas for being inclusive and respectful, both of which I think come from gaining more understanding. I ask people "What's the hardest part of what you do?" and I find out all sorts of unexpected things about peoples' jobs, lives, hobbies, passions, and it always proves that I don't know half of what they are experiencing. I also ask "What's the best thing?" and the answers are again surprising (most often) and always informative. The answers usually show more to the person than before, and gives more to talk about, share and discuss than building barriers based on assumptions and personal insecurities or jealousies.
I have to pipe up about my own mother and my childhood. My mother worked as a teacher and school administrator, and usually had another odd job too to make ends meet. She was the main bread winner for our family. She had 4 chikdren and always made sure we were taken care of, and she was very present in our lives as children and teens, and we were certainly not lacking in any respect. She was the mother who organized carpools and all the other millions of things mom's do daily. It took extra work but she stayed on top of everything that needed to be done for us in and out of the home.
Despite her work schedule, she was a superb mother and nurturer.
Had she been a stay at home mother, I don't think she would have survived. Not all women are designed that way by God! I just wish we could praise our differences more and judge less – in the end it will be our ignorance that keeps us from God and true happiness.
I know Sister Renlund. She is using the intelligence and attributes she has been given in a humble, beautiful manner. Elder Renlund and her are team of great humanity , understanding and love. Largely because of her education and choices,she is and will be a great asset to the Church at large. Her calling is beside her husband and they are excellent examples and teachers. To have only one child was not her choice. The Lord h as a work for her to do, like we all have. I live in Africa and we don't have time for petty nonsense. Life is hard enough every day. Women here don't often know were the next loaf of bread is coming from. They are away from their homes and children for 12 – 14 hours a day. Feel blessed if you don't have to do that.
The challenge with foregoing formal education and relying on the "practical" experience of church callings is that when you are 50 and look around for a job you will be competing for them at places like Walmart and Jack in the Box. I have an MA and have worked part time the entire time I was home with the kids. Now, I can't get a job to save my life. With real and prodigious skills.
What I find so hard to believe about this conversation (globally) that we are having here is why are we still having it?? Why?? We do what we must to get through this little life. It is hard enough – whether you stay at home with 8 kids or work in a corporate setting or are a single parent struggling in a minimum wage job without benefits – why must we insist on being divisive about it?? Can't we just acknowledge a tiny bit that regardless of where folks are they made choices – sometimes those choices were out of necessity – some folks had more options – but they CHOSE. That is the summum bonum – we get to choose. It is what we do with our choices – and how we treat other people in this little life that God has pointed out to us – in not so subtle ways (2 Nephi 2:28) that matter. Give people a hug. Help them with their kids. Go out of your way.
I am at odds being between worlds myself.
I am a stay at home mom to one boy. I am constantly pushed and prodded about when I will ¨free¨ myself of the child and go back to work. Or when I will justify staying home by having another child. When I pray, I get that I must stay home and mother my child, so I do. This answer doesn´t satisfy people. I doubt anything I do ever will. Don´t know if I really care.
On the other hand, I am a part-time student. Not to become a nurse or teacher, that would just be simple (and acceptable). I am studying linguistics and foreign languages. So people in the church treat me like I grew a new head. Why would you go to school at all? Don´t you know your children need you at home? What will you ever do with that degree? None of your business, but again, don´t know my answers will ever satisfy anyone… and I am not sure I care.
And that might be the best rule… to not care what trolls and haters say. Let it slide off our backs. If they don´t necessarily care about our well-being and eternal salvation, why share important precious personal decisions with them? They are between us and God. Now if we feel like sharing… let their comments slide off if they are anything other than caring.
When it comes to others, let us question our own curiosity. Is our curiosity worth so much we are willing to hurt someone? If not, then it is best not to ask questions we might react to the wrong way. Or ask and be prepared to react nicely even if we do not agree with answer. For example: you decide to ask someone if they will have more children. If their answer is ¨Heavens no, we don´t want any more¨, how do you reply in a non-contentious way? non-judgmental?
I am still learning this, because I was taught to ¨bear testimony¨ and sometimes I come across as overbearing. Truth is, saying ¨i see¨ without an eye-roll is a good enough answer. Friendship is about listening, not agreeing. Listen listen listen, and before reacting, pass your comment through a filter, ask the Lord real quick ¨how do i say what i need to say without sounding mean?¨
But mainly, stop asking questions to satisfy your own curiosity when you don´t care about the person at all. This drives me, and I´m sure everyone else, crazy. Care more about the people, than your own curiosity. And be kind… really kind.
I love "What's the hardest part of what you do?" and "What's the best thing?" and I am definitely stealing those next time I find myself in a small talk-ish situation.
So, except for a few throughout the years, most the the General women's auxiliary leadership has been occupied by women who had no outside occupation than that of SAHM, and it was glorified for years. I know. I was raised that way, and frankly as a single woman whom never married and has no kids I have been very aware of this fact.
What we are seeing is cultural message change in the church, and a lot of women who are fighting against it for personal reasons that have more to do with their own personal situation than empathizing with other women in differing situations.
As LDS women we are now being told that the world is our oyster and that we have the ability to choose our path regardless the cultural programming those of my generation and earlier received. I applaud this change and encourage all women to come to see that they define their own womanhood and motherhood through thoughtful prayer and personal revelation rather than through cultural expectations passed along from one generation to the next.
I imagine that the fact that I have eleven children and have chosen/been able to stay home to raise them has been/is judged by other people but this does not surprise me. Frankly I would be surprised if my choices did NOT raise some eyebrows. But (most of the time) I either don't care or don't notice. I feel so strongly that what I have chosen to do with my life is right that I think it tends to override what anybody else thinks about it. I try to be open minded in my opinions of others' lives–mainly because I don't know what has led to their choices and I can imagine that given different circumstances I might have fewer children and/or have a career. (I am very happy, grateful and satisfied with the way things have played out/been chosen in my life though. The time and ability to express myself through the nurturing of my children and marriage has been intensely fulfilling.) I think the perception of being judged can come (at least in part) when we do not feel secure and settled in our own choices and we are confronted with someone whose opinion we value or fear. So in answer to the question about how we can decrease our own insecurities I would say to seek out and align yourself with what God wants for your life. If you are positive that you are following God's plan for you and you care more about what He thinks than what anybody else says then any criticism or judging will tend to roll off–you simply won't care or notice as much about the perceived (or real) naysayers.
Jill Curtis–YES.
Great article. Very true – though not everyone judges – It is very prevalent in the LDS culture. Remembering this makes me glad that I'm not LDS any longer & that I moved away from an oppressive life style and state. I also have a passion for inclusiveness – I love that comment on the above post! I recently graduated nursing school and I had someone tell me that hopefully I'll meet a guy soon and then I can stay home and watch my son and not have to worry about working! Who are these people? I want to work, that's why I just finished nursing school. And how many people out there are really fortunate enough, especially with all that life brings, to have one income? Not everybody.
You seem to have had a lot of busy-body advice givers in your circle of acquaintances! Don't listen to them.
Wow! Michelle! I'm sorry I didn't see this sooner! I love the encouragement here to view each other, all our sisters, as guided and inspired along their unique path. The beauty of non-judgment is that it allows for all of us to be "safely gathered in." And that safety is born of gratitude for each other. For the gifts, talents, and pursuits each woman brings to our collective voice, mind, and church. In one of the first salon events for MWP, I was very touched by a statement from one of the women presenting (sadly, I cannot recall her name) but she said (as best I can remember), "We need to throw out the script. There is no one script for the women of God. We need to teach our daughters how to listen and hear the Lord's Spirit so they can perform or write the script He intends for them."
I know this article is mostly about working women vs SAHMs, but my first reaction to this was anger that people aren't more understanding of her situation when it comes to how many children she has. Maybe she and Bro. Runland only wanted one child, or maybe they wanted more and they just couldn't have more. I guess this reaction comes from the fact that we've been trying to have more children for 6 years, but my body just isn't making it happen. We've seen doctors, done the infertility thing, etc. and yet, we still have the same amount of children. For me, there was no choice about how many children to have. We had children until my body stopped having them, but would have loved to have more. To judge someone for only having one child, whether that be their choice or whether it wasn't, is just despicable. (I could go on, but the rests of my thoughts are pretty much covered by your article)
@Nana 12 My first thought reading through the comments was very similar to yours. The prophets and other leaders seem to be the "problem" and THAT makes ME feel uncomfortable. You are absolutely right…hearing things from our leaders that are direct, go against the status quo, or seem judgemental can make us feel uncomfortable. It's probably difficult for them to say those thing when they know how some may receive the message.
I do know how it feels to be an outsider. I was married and had my first child my senior year in high school. By the time I was 22 I had 4 and a divorce under my belt and by 23 was remarried and added another child to my brood. My husband was 5 years younger than me…18…he took on 5 kids and a soon-to-be diagnosed bipolar wife at 18. While we struggled financially for many years (I only took a job if I had to help pay to replace a car or move) he worked as much as he could to make sure I could stay home with my little monsters. That was a decision we made from the beginning. Fast forward 17 years and, once again, I'm in the weird spot of being 40 with 3 grandchildren (the greatest blessing g Heavenly Father could ever give me), two kids at college (one of them gay), and one lone 16 year old at home. I HAVE FRIENDS WHO HAD OR ARE HAVING BABIES THIS YEAR! I relate to people my mother's age better than women in my bracket as far as life experience goes.
I guess I just wanted to add my experience to those above and remind myself and anyone else who has read this far that we're all "outsiders" of something or another. The most beautiful thing, to me is that life is like a series of interconnected, Venn-like diagrams. If you're outside somewhere, you're inside somewhere else. We don't have to be the same…but looking for "sameness" in each other sure makes this life fun…even if it is you haven't changed out of your pajamas for 2 days.
I have felt the strange phenomenon where since my job title isn't a lower, entry level position, that some how I'm not sacrificing enough to be a working mom. My husband is in Grad school and we will have been married for 8 years before he's no longer a student. Since I've been putting him through school by working, I have received approval from some of the judging eyes around me. It's the "Oh, I see. You have to work to put your husband through school. That's so hard. I bet you miss your babies." Yes, it has been hard, but at the same time I love my work and my career and I've put a lot of effort into gaining as many promotions at work as I possibly could. That's usually when the approval I had garnered by telling them I'm putting hubby through dissipates. It becomes this strange sort of feeling where since I'm successful in my career, it must not be that much of a sacrifice to put hubby through. Ironically, I pay more than a third of our net income to child care providers – which I wouldn't be able to possibly afford in any way if I was working in a lower level position. I would be lying if I didn't worry about what to tell people if I decide to continue working once my husband is done with school. Does paying off student loans seem like justification enough to continue my career? 🙂
One thing that strikes me about the post, and the comments that have followed is that when making choices about their family and work options, regardless of what you do, if you look for external validation or external justification (whether from people at church or out in the "world") you will never be satisfied. I also believe that if we prayerfully dedicate ourselves to studying the current counsel from the Prophet and apostles, and then take it to the Lord, we will get the answer that is right. Then it doesn't matter what others think about our life choices. I can't control whether or not others will judge me and my life, but I can control how I treat others. This post caused me to take stock of how I treat other women and how I need to fine -tune my actions.
it still comes back to 'if ye are without sin cast the first stone (rude comment)'. i don't know what working full time outside of the home feels like. i have had part time jobs to help with my families income. my husband works hard to keep us afloat. i have had members make rude comments about my husband working so much. yes he spent many hours with our children sometimes giving up much needed sleep. he supported our children in sports and other activities. i still do not understand how some feel they have the right to be rude to working mothers. i applaud them. they have a tough choice to make. i get rude comments of 'why aren't you working'. seriously some members are fickle pickles. ha ha . i just smile and move along.
Our task on this Earth, in this life, is to learn to feel and show love towards one another – the judging part of our selves and fellow humanbeings, we intrusted in Jesus the day we got baptized. That's really all there is to it, and I think most wards would be better and more Christlike places if we stuck to that.
We only have one free will – and that's our own. We can't decide or dictate other people's choices – I actually think our leaders know that more than any body else. On the other hand, the choices we do make are our own responsibility; we can't blame those on church leaders, fellow bretheren, parents etc.
As for decreasing my insecurities: I try to focus on the fact that I'm a very beloved daughter of God; I notice scripture's than confirmes our heavenly parents and Jesus love for his children here on Earth. I also choose to focus on and strengthen those of my earthly relationships that strengthens and supports me.
Should some one in church have a comment, that shows they've forgotten their purpose of being a dicsipel of Christ (see my last comment), I simply remind them – friendly, but firmly.
As for inclusion, we should remember the worth of every soul and make an effort to include every one – applying the parabel of the sheperd who went out of his way to reach just one sheep. How about asking people what would work for them?
Michelle!! This is wonderful. I'm so glad you wrote about this topic. I have thought about writing a book about this for years! Ha. I just can't stand all the tearing apart of women by women. We are our worst enemies. Bravo for tackling this sensitive subject with such grace. You are awesome!!!
Well said.
A traveling companion with Elder Richard G Scott at one of our stake conferences made a statement I've never forgotten. The impact has stayed with me for probably around ten years now. He stated, "We're not here to see through each other. We're here to see each other through."
I've had both experiences–working, stay-at-home, excelling, fill in….and have managed to garner criticism on all levels. It's a dividing habit.
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The most fundamental principle is contained in the Savior’s commandment that we “judge not unrighteously . . . : but judge righteous judgment” (JST, Matthew 7:1–2; see also John 7:24, Alma 41:14).
First of all, a righteous judgment must, by definition, be intermediate. It will refrain from declaring that a person has been assured of exaltation or from dismissing a person as being irrevocably bound for hellfire. It will refrain from declaring that a person has forfeited all opportunity for exaltation or even all opportunity for a useful role in the work of the Lord. The gospel is a gospel of hope, and none of us is authorized to deny the power of the Atonement to bring about a cleansing of individual sins, forgiveness, and a reformation of life on appropriate conditions.
Second, a righteous judgment will be guided by the Spirit of the Lord, not by anger, revenge, jealousy, or self-interest. The Book of Mormon teaches:
For behold, my brethren, it is given unto you to judge, that ye may know good from evil; and the way to judge is as plain . . . as the daylight is from the dark night.
For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil. [Moroni 7:15–16]
The Savior taught that one of the missions of the Comforter he would send would be to assist in judgment of the world by guiding the faithful “into all truth” (John 16:13; see also vv. 8, 11).
whenever possible we will refrain from judging people and only judge situations
The prophet Mormon taught:
And now, my brethren, seeing that ye know the light by which ye may judge, which light is the light of Christ, see that ye do not judge wrongfully; for with that same judgment which ye judge ye shall also be judged. [Moroni 7:18]
*The above all from Judging Not and Judging by Dallin H. Oaks – March 1 (anniversary!) 1998 BYU Speech.
One proven and persistent negative side effect of wives and mothers working outside the home is infidelity.
My first experience in serving with a bishopric was hearing the sad story from a woman I admired for her spirituality and earnestness and devotion to the Lord, about how she succumbed to temptation. She was pursued in the workplace. And over time let her guard down.
It's much like the circumstance of two teenagers parking at the end of a dark lane after every date: Eventually, they will succumb.
Unless something changes.
As Mr. Miyagi from THE KARATE KID pointed out: "The best way to dodge a punch is to not be there when it happens."
This is also the best way to avoid infidelity.
Statistics wise, the workplace is where as lot of it happens.
Many a fallen sister has said: "I was sure that I could handle it."
Just something more to consider.
I have been a stay home mom for a few years while my husband was in school in BYU. When we moved back to Hong Kong, life was way more stressful, financially, emotionally, and for the kids, well, academically. Housing was very expensive. Most families have to have both parents working to survive. Through much prayers, God has blessed me with a part-time job that I can work from home, while another job only takes 2-3 hours of my time each day, so that not only can I support my family financially, but also take care of my three young ones. I love being a stay home mom, and I also love taking a job I like that can bless others. I feel like I am putting the things I learned in the US in use and make a difference in my home country now. God will direct you and put you in the position that is best for you, your family, and others as you prayerfully seek the answer and submit to His will.
Well said, Lindsey. I appreciate your thoughts so much:)
Darwin,
That's the funniest thing I have ever read!
AMEN!!
Let's let the Lord be the judge…..
*laughs* I'm assuming it was the part about Mr. Miyagi that you found funny.
Studies published in the American Sociological Review and the Journal of Marriage and Family show that before 1985, divorce rates were about equal among working and homemaking women; however, "between 1985 and 1992, the annual probability of divorce among employed wives exceeded that for nonemployed wives by 40 percent."
In her book Not 'Just Friends', Dr. Shirley Glass says, "The new infidelity is between people who unwittingly form deep, passionate connections before realizing that they've crossed the line from platonic friendship into romantic love. Eighty-two percent of the 210 unfaithful partners I've treated have had an affair with someone who was, at first, ‘just a friend.'" From 1991 to 2000, Glass discovered in her practice that 50 percent of the unfaithful women and about 62 percent of unfaithful men she treated were involved with someone from work. "Today's workplace has become the new danger zone of romantic attraction and opportunity,"
Dr. Athena Staik offers 12 warning signs that it's "not just friendship":
1. Thinking and saying you’re ‘just friends’ with opposite-sex.
If you’ve been thinking or saying, “we’re just friends,” think again. If it’s a member of the opposite sex, you may be swimming in treacherous waters. The very words are dangerous to your marriage.
2. Treating them as a confidant, sharing intimate issues.
Sharing thoughts and deepest concerns, hopes and fears, passions and problems is what deepens intimacy; it builds an emotional bond between two people, time better used in marriage relationship. Giving this away to another person, regardless of the justification, is infidelity, a betrayal of trust.
3. Discussing troubling aspects of your marriage and partner.
Talking or venting to a person of the opposite sex about what your marriage lacks, what your partner lacks, or what you’re not getting to make you happy sends a loud message that you’re available for someone else to ‘love and care’ for your needs. It’s also a breach of trust.
4. Comparing them verbally and mentally to your partner.
Another danger sign is a thinking pattern that increasingly finds what is ‘positive’ and ‘just right’ about the friend and ‘negative’ and ‘unfulfilling’ about the partner.
5. Obsessively thinking or daydreaming about the person.
If you find yourself looking forward to seeing the person, cannot wait to share news, think about what you’re going to tell them when you’re apart, and imagine their excitement, you’re in trouble.
6. Believing this person ‘gets’ you like no other.
7. Pulling out of regular activities with your partner, family, work.
8. Keeping what you do secret and covering up your trail.
Secrecy itself is a warning sign. It creates a distinct closeness between two people, and at the same time grows the distance between them and others. Secrets create a special bond, most often an unhealthy one. For example, there may be a false sense of emotional safety and trust with the person, and an unwarranted mistrust and suspicion of the partner, or those who try to interfere with the ‘friendship.’
9. Keeping a growing list of reasons that justify your behaviors.
10. Fantasizing about a love or sexual relationship with the person.
11. Giving or receiving personal gifts from the person.
12. Planning to spend time alone together or letting it happen.
This is the warning sign that, when not heeded, most often pushes partners to cross the line from a platonic to a sexual relationship. Despite good intentions and promises to one another that they would not let ‘anything’ happen, it’s a set up, a matter of time, when opposite-sex friends flirt with the availability of time alone.
Lisa Miller and Lorraine Ali note in their NEWSWEEK article "The New Infidelity": "nearly 60 percent of American women work outside the home, up from about 40 percent in 1964. Quite simply, women intersect with more people during the day than they used to. They go to more meetings, take more business trips and, presumably, participate more in flirtatious water-cooler chatter."
Studies published in the American Sociological Review and the Journal of Marriage and Family show that before 1985, divorce rates were about equal among working and homemaking women; however, "between 1985 and 1992, the annual probability of divorce among employed wives exceeded that for nonemployed wives by 40 percent."
We both know that none of that is remotely funny.
I'm a lot older than you are, college educated, and the mother of four adult children and two young grandchildren, but I feel just like you do. (You certainly write well, even if you don't have a more "formal" education!) As the years passed, I was eventually working in the church with young mothers, two of whom come to mind because they resented the fact that their mothers worked outside the home and left many adult responsibilities on their shoulders (the operative word here is "adult"). Subsequently, they were determined to do whatever it took to stay home with their children. Yes, we all have choices, but sometimes it doesn't really feel that way when trying to follow the counsel of church leaders. I have told my daughters that I support them in whatever choices they will, no doubt, have to make. I really enjoyed your post!
What I think is hysterical is your implication that if women go to work they are going to end up having an affair! I mean who are they having affairs with, mostly men I imagine. By this logic neither men or women should work outside the home.
I'm sure you mean well. But just know that your assertions come across as insulting.
You go, Shayna! You absolutely hit the nail on the head with your Venn diagram analogy: "If you're outside somewhere, you're inside somewhere else." That is my new favorite quote and one of the best I have seen posted here. Although our life stories are quite different, I feel a kinship to you. I'm not sure why, but I think it's your ability to tell it like it is! Yes, we should support one another, but often we need to just mind our own business! Your writings remind me of another quote I ascribe to: "Life is too short to beat around the bush." Best wishes to you.
Pat, those bishops and church members who were so hateful to you were, in a word, WRONG! I cannot believe the outright rudeness of those "well intentioned" people. Baloney! That's just another word for busybody, and probably people who were insecure about what they were doing! I'll bet your children appreciate the fact that you chose to stay home with them, even if they might not express it. Remember, we can only be intimidated by someone if we let them-easier said than done I know. I think there's a book out there written a while back entitled, "What You Think of Me Is None of My Business." Be proud of your accomplishments-you have done well.
Interesting…
"To believe that someone or something can make us feel offended, angry, hurt, or bitter diminishes our moral agency and transforms us into objects to be acted upon.
However, it ultimately is impossible for another person to offend you or to offend me. Indeed, believing that another person offended us is fundamentally false. To be offended is a choice we make; it is not a condition inflicted or imposed upon us by someone or something else.
In many instances, choosing to be offended is a symptom of a much deeper and more serious spiritual malady. " – David A. Bednar
As a senior sister, I've experienced times in my life when I was single for many years, a stay at home mom for a few years, worked part time in and out of the home as well as worked full time out of the home. One of the most tender gifts that has been given to everyone is the gift of personal revelation. Isn't it exciting to note that we don't have to make decisions for anyone else, just ourselves! And no one can know as much about each one of us as our Savior does. I rejoice when I see sisters achieve wonderful things in the workplace. I am thrilled to see stay at home moms caring for little ones. I am excited to see sisters who haven't married make an incredible impact on others. I am moved by seeing dear sisters who are faced with challenges (don't we all!) and keep putting one foot in front of the other. We all have unique circumstances, unique talents and gifts, unique things to offer each other. What a joy! I wonder if some of our problems boil down to a few simple things: not quite understanding that Our Father knows us intimately and will give us our own personal guidance; not quite realizing that Our Father is communicating with our prophet for guidance for the whole church (isn't that what distinguishes our church); not knowing how to communicate kindly and with love for everyone. Sometimes it might be enjoyable to say: Tell me a little of your story…what has been one of your highlights this week?…what impressed you about today's lesson?….I like your comments, they made me stop and think…I don't know you well, but I'd like to know you better…
Love each other, applaud each other, pull together as your ward family. We are not in competition. We are all cherished, unique, beloved daughters of Our Heavenly Father.
Besides the sad circumstance of the sister I mentioned, and the fact that her actions came to have the same consequence as those of teenagers who parked in a dark lane after every date…
…and the fact that in both instances the outcome was inevitable if things didn't change…
…and the warning signs (by experts) that were listed in my second response as things to change so that infidelity does not happen…
It is also of importance to note that it is women, not often men, who are TARGETED for sexual attentions in the workplace.
Although I understand that it is possible for males to be victims of sexual harassment, the majority of sexual harassment victims in the workplace are female.
Mormon females are also thought of a high priority targets for men seeking conquests. Because they see them as a challenge, as a trophy.
"He said I was the only one who ever cared enough to listen!"
"He said that I was the only one who understood him!"
"He said I was the only one who could help him!"
"He said that I'm his only real friend!"
"He seemed to need me!"
These things are a trap and a snare. And you spouse should always be informed of such advances made to you.
Then there are those who resort to slipping "date rape" drugs into an innocent drink or FOOD, have the encounter documented, then blackmail into continuing an unwanted affair.
Another instance where the spouse should be informed. This isn't something to be faced alone.
The replies to my comments have been worded to point that out that egos may be bruised by my points. As Elder Bednar pointed out, there is no need to choose to be insulted or offended. Especially where none was intended.
In the gospel, in regards to sin, we have the fence at the top of the cliff, and the ambulance at the bottom.
I am simple supplying things for people to consider so more people may avoid falling splat.
Even though the ambulance IS there…it still hurts to fall splat.
How about being a working mom and having dad stay home with the kids? Talk about feeling judged.
You know, I feel as though I don't fit in with either the working moms, OR the stay at home moms. I got married late in life, and I have been married 4 years. Now, at age 41, I don't know whether I ever will be a mom at all. It's heartwrenching when people say, "we will have this activity, and make/create/do xxx for the children!!" They think it is wonderful, but I feel left out, not having any children/grandchildren of my own. People try to pass it of by saying, "we are mothers to all the children around us", but that only makes it worse. I do not feel like a mother, and I don't feel that I "mother" the children of others around me. And if I do ever have children, I will still have to work, because my husband doesn't make enough to pay our mortgage on our small house now. Not to mention that I would be in my 60's, and my husband in his 70's when any children we may have graduate from high school. I am the breadwinner of the family, and it hurts. I would love to be the typical Mormon mother, but I'm not, and I'm struggling to fit in, and make peace with my lot in this life. It's hard, but I find things to fill my life, and to make me feel like I have made a successful contribution in this life.
No matter where we perform our labors, WE ALL WORK. So I was a stay-at-home mom until the divorce. Then I was a 'work-outside-the-home' mom. Lets not forget its the same person performing the labors–just in a different place! 🙂 WORK is WORK!
I agree that it's all about kindness. I'm in the military and the conversation with other women at church almost always ends abruptly when I say I am the one who works. Because of my job we were in the right place when my oldest came down with a serious illness with the right specialist who recognized her condition right away and save her life. Now my health insurance pays for her medication which costs 10,000 a month! No on can see that when they ask me what my husband does (he is the one at home with our children). What does it matter what he does or I do during the day; can't we still be friends?
I'm in my early 40's, single, but not married. Children of my own are not in my future. I want to comment on the women who say it's my job to help them raise their children. No effing way am I going to let these women tell me what my job is. Unless I have a relationship with the child, usually through the parent or a calling, I'm not likely to get involved. Thanks, but no thanks. It ticks me off to no end when I hear women say it especially when they think they are being conciliatory. I think someone said something similar in a General RS meeting, and it morphed into it being my job to help another woman raise their kids. Since most of the mommies in my ward don't include me in their social network, I'm not likely to want to help them. The friends I do have with kids, I love and adore them like surrogate nieces and nephews. But don't make the assumption that it is my job to do so. It is my womanhood, my motherhood, my choice.
I agree that we don’t have the right to judge anyone else. We don’t know what decisions the Lord inspired them to make. Besides, it is none of our business. I am concerned, however, that there may be some misunderstanding implied in some of the readers’ comments. Holly touches on it here. Some do not appear to understand that there is pretty clear direction from the Lord regarding these issues.
It is still the doctrine of the Church that our priority should be to have and generally not postpone children and that it is best for mothers to stay home with their children. This is not outdated counsel that no longer applies. The Lord will tell each couple through personal revelation whether or not an exception should be made, but the standard is clear. There are many reasons for righteous exceptions, and we have no right to judge any other couple regardless of their decision.
The Lord has been clear that “[fathers} are responsible to provide the necessities of life and protection for their families. Mothers are primarily responsible for the nurture of their children. In these sacred responsibilities, fathers and mothers are obligated to help one another as equal partners (Proclamation: The Family…).”
Regarding having children, Elder Andersen recently reaffirmed, “We declare that God’s commandment for His children to multiply and replenish the earth remains in force.” He indicated, “Many voices in the world today marginalize the importance of having children or suggest delaying or limiting children in a family (Neil L. Andersen, General Conference October 2011).” Again, there are many righteous reasons for exceptions. Elder Anderson underscored that ultimately “how many children to have and when to have them is between a husband and wife and the Lord. We should not judge one another on this matter.”
Thank you all for your comments and the discussion. Here's to being peacekeepers, peacemakers and friends wherever we may be.