48 Responses to “My friend, the Apostate”

1. nesquik405
   August 26th, 2008 @ 7:20 am

   Michelle,

   Fascinating Brigham Young quote. I seem to remember something like it from a ’90s Relief Society lesson. Can you point me to the source of the quote?

2. mellocello
   August 26th, 2008 @ 7:38 am

   Thank you for this. I have been struggling with some aspects of my faith as well, and I am in for a long road of soul searching and spending a lot of time on my knees, which will be a good place to be anyway. I love the church and its people, its concepts and the book of mormon. I want it to be true, but I often find myself asking “does it really matter so much that it’s the ONLY true church? If prophets are human, then can’t they be wrong sometimes? How do I ignore or come to terms with the hypocrisy I see, which is something I never have before seen so clearly?” (it hurts my heart even to write these questions down). So, in my heart its true, or most aspects of it feel true, but in my logic, well, I have to either ignore some things, resign that I don’t and never will understand them, or keep praying for answers. Sometimes I want to feel heart-broken and exhausted for my excitement of what God is doing in my life, like I did when I used to go to a “rock and roll” church, as I like to call it. How do I get past the empty, cynical feeling?

   Thank you again, for this post, and the kind spirit it was written in. It’s clear that you have the love of christ in your heart.

3. Justine
   August 26th, 2008 @ 8:03 am

   I really feel that, more than spreading the one true church statement, it is easier for me to discuss the principles of authority and keys. There is good and truth in a lot of places all over the world. There is, however, authority here. There is imperfection and hurt in a lot of places, too. But those imperfect men in the LDS church hold the keys.

   I cannot make excuse or redeem the poor choices of others, but my testimony is something that I just cannot deny. And so it is I know that President Monson is a prophet of God. I cannot deny that knowledge. All the quibbling thoughts in my head aside, I absolutely know that my husband has the priesthood of the Lord, through the proper authority bestowed in the proper way. I cannot get around it or escape it.

   Yet there are many people in my life, inside and outside the church, that are tremendous examples to me of Christ-like love and service. The Spirit testifies of truth, wherever it is found. And ultimately, I believe, that truth will lead to the proper authority.

   God bless you, mellocello, in your own search. And thank you, Michelle, for this great post!

4. michelle
   August 26th, 2008 @ 8:10 am

   nesquik- I first found the quote in the old brown Book of Mormon institute manual(the old edition is so fantastic– I don’t know why they changed it). It is used to supplement Alma 30:7-11 in a duscussion about religious tolerance. It’s in the Journal of Discourses Volume 2:317 or you can find the whole talk online at http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Journal_of_Discourses/Volume2/The_Kingdom_of_God

   mellocello- thank you for your kind words and for asking the hard questions!

5. Heidi T.
   August 26th, 2008 @ 9:05 am

   Sometimes I think it is hard to remember that even if it is the one true Church, not all truth has been revealed. It all goes back to the pattern that Christ set up for us. No matter what religion you are, it really comes down to how you treat others. The truth will all be revealed in time.

6. edawn
   August 26th, 2008 @ 9:13 am

   I have often wondered if it weren’t more correct to interpret “true” as loyal, like “true to the faith.” For me, it makes more sense because of the continued revelation aspect. The church can be more true because we believe that me need to be constantly asking if we are on the right track, and that goes for the church, too. The leaders should be constantly asking what direction the church as a whole needs to be going.

   I have also been struggling with knowing how go deal with the idea that many of my very dear friends, who have not joined the church despite the fact that I have invited them to come and tried to be a good example to them, will not be allowed to enter the celestial kingdom, and the feeling that keeps coming back to me is that they will most definatley be there if that is what they want. Of course, this is all assuming there is a Heavenly Father and a celestial kingdom, which I do believe.

7. FoxyJ
   August 26th, 2008 @ 9:20 am

   This was beautiful–so much of that describes my husband and his journey out of the church over the last few years. It is incredibly hard when it’s a family member who is close to you–when we can both look at the same experiences and see them in totally different lights. We recently moved and I think it’s been hard for the ward here to “get it” because he doesn’t look or act like “apostate” like some people think. He’s obviously still a generous, kind-hearted person, and if you ask us where we met it was at BYU. But he’s not coming to church right now, and I respect that and wish other people would too.

8. cheryl
   August 26th, 2008 @ 9:27 am

   I wasn’t sure why this post left me unsettled, so I took some time this morning to ponder it. One of the questions that came to my mind was that if Christ doesn’t have the “one true church” and it all depends on faith, then why do we have saving ordinances such as baptism, confirmation, washing/annointings, endowments, celestial marriage…? I think it goes with what Justine was saying about authority, but more than that, it has to do with progress.
   People who have faith in Christ but do not believe in the ordinances and covenants of the Gospel are at the beginning. Sure, they may think I’m insulting them for saying –what every Mormon seems to be saying –that they have part of the truth or they are at the beginning of their spiritual journey. But it is the first principle of the Gospel. Without faith in Christ, the rest doesn’t matter.
   Perhaps some “apostates” have had to start over, work on the foundation, and then begin the journey again? To me that is a beautiful thing, because at least they are trying to find that faith and work on a personal relationship of belief. Of course, those who reject God and Christ altogether is a totally different discussion…

   Anyway, thank you, Michelle, for another great post!

9. edawn
   August 26th, 2008 @ 9:34 am

   I’m sorry about all the typos in my comment, and I wanted to say that it is important for the church as well us personally to keep asking for direction.

10. Jennie
    August 26th, 2008 @ 9:41 am

    I love when people ask questions, even if they find answers that I don’t like. At least they are searching and pondering. What bothers me are the people who coast along, finding no motivation to ask anything.

11. "Kate" from the story
    August 26th, 2008 @ 9:58 am

    The Brigham Young quote you cited is amazing.

    And Michelle, your ability to have an open mind and heart has been inspring to witness. Lucky, lucky me.

    In my experience, there seem to be “categories” for Non-mormons. One category is those who have never been associated with the church — who are viewed as hopeful missionary opportunities. Unfortunately, there is a unique brand of scorn (by some members, certainly not all) for those who have chosen to step away from the LDS church, especially after going through the temple (there is so much I can say about this, but not right now).

    Many LDS cannot imagine that a person would come to the conclusion that it isn’t the one true church. The only way for some to reconcile this is by placing it back on the person who left (they must have not tried hard enough, prayed hard enough, asked the right questions…or it’s probably a result of that evil coffee pot on the counter) OR even more harmful conclusions, such as it must be a Porn problem, a gambling problem, maybe an affair?? … some grave sin that is blocking them from reaching the same conclusion that I have about the truthfulness of the church.

    Michelle and I have agreed, after many heart felt comversations that we honor and respect each other’s chosen path. I feel a serious obligation to my LDS family and friends to let them know that I have continued respect for their choice…. and that I absolutely expect the same courtesy in return. I wouldn’t expect Michelle to be thrilled if I was neglecting my children, cheating on my husband or otherwise making a mess of my life. But as it is, I am walking in partnership with a loving Heavenly Father, living a happy, peaceful and productive life … outside of the LDS church.

    Thank you, Michelle for presenting this in such a loving, thoughtful and honest way.

12. Ty
    August 26th, 2008 @ 10:28 am

    I am not sure that I can understand the thoughts here. I am not from Utah, so I have had nonmembers galore in my life for forever. I have known there is good people of other faiths who love The Savior and their family and on and on forever, that goes without saying. I never knew people didin’t already know that. And I understand not judging, that accepting and loving no matter the choice. But to not worry about the friend, I don’t understand.

13. Blue
    August 26th, 2008 @ 10:45 am

    In the past fifteen years, I’ve had a dozen of my dearest family members and closest friends follow the same path “Kate” has (to varying degrees). Some still believe in a God, others have become agnostic or atheist. Their choices placed me in a position that required me to really figure out where I actually stand on matters. It was painful and difficult, but I’m better for having found my own, bona fide faith, so I am grateful for the experience. My emotions over my loved ones decisions ran the entire gammut that Michelle mentioned in this post, and thankfully I have finally arrived at a place of peace regarding their situations.

    It’s almost like a gift, a gift of charity, to be able to just love a person for who they are right now, without the undercurrent of wishing they’d change or conform to one’s own way of being. I want everyone, including my dear ones who have chosen to disassociate with the LDS faith, to be the most happy they can be, and I recognize they’re all on their individual journeys. Just like I am.

    Michelle, thank you for writing about this so beautifully. I’m very grateful for your friendship and insights shared so graciously! ♥

14. MidCityGal
    August 26th, 2008 @ 10:56 am

    Although your argument is sound, Michelle, I feel that you have oversimplified the statement, “Every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess” (D&C 88:104). We know that simply confessing His name is not enough. Isaiah warned that “[f]orasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men.” (Isaiah 29:13) It won’t be sufficient for us to simply know. For “faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.” (James 2:17) The pathway to eternal life is set for us to enter in through the gate, for “strait is the gate and narrow is the way.” (Matt 7:14) We know that the gate is baptism, and before we will be exalted, we must have faith, repent, be baptized, endowed, sealed, and must be living faithfully until the end.

    That being said, Michelle and ‘Kate’, I do not believe for one second that Mormons will be the only ones in the celestial kingdom, there are plenty of good people who will still yet come to the knowledge of Jesus Christ and His Plan of Salvation, whether in this life or in the life to come.

    Furthermore, I wholeheartedly agree with you that judging one another on this matter is not helpful nor necessary. Each of us has our own relationship with the Creator and will eventually ‘kneel’ before Him someday knowing that He TRULY KNOWS the intents of our hearts, the love that we have for Him and for our fellow men and the good that we tried to do here in our own sphere of influence, even if our fellow Relief Society sisters or neighbors or family members didn’t think so (or never got to see the full picture, anyway).

15. Matt
    August 26th, 2008 @ 11:14 am

    Neither the LDS Church, nor the Christian population in the world, nor lovers of freedom and democracy, nor any other way to slice and dice humanity has a monopoly on virtue and goodness. Of course there is joy to be found in life, regardless of religious, social, political, or other affiliation. “Men are that they might have joy,” and there is so much in this life and world that brings joy. Positive associations with family and friends, for example, are available to nearly all of God’s children, and are some of the most precious blessings we have.

    Our God is not only just, but is also perfectly merciful, kind, and generous. I know that He wants desperately to give as much joy as possible to every one of His children. I have learned through my own life experience that He is anxious to bless us with as much happiness and joy as we will accept. It is true that He already knows who will ultimately follow the path to a life like He leads, and who will choose not to. He respects those choices, and despite His omniscience, He allows us to live because there is joy–and pain–in the process of making our own choices, but in the end it is all learning, and therefore all ultimately worthwhile. There are very few of us who will be worse for having gone through this mortal life, and even those few would cry injustice if they were denied the opportunity.

    So no member of the LDS church should begrudge someone not of our faith any happiness or fulfillment they find in this process, even if their path is different than ours. However, neither should any member of the LDS church who has learned for themselves the way to even greater happiness ever stop loving, reaching out, and encouraging others to join us and find even greater happiness.

    Life is fascinating with many interesting stops along the way, but neither fascination nor interest changes the fact that “strait is the gate and narrow is the way” that leads to eternal life, that quality of life that excels all alternates in true joy and fulfillment, to an incomprehensible degree. Christ has organized His kingdom on earth and given over keys and authority and set minimal requirements for participation. He asks so little of us–just to humbly accept His will, even though we may not understand everything. If we want the greatest of all blessings, we must humble ourselves to Him who is the only one in the universe who is capable of giving them, and trust Him to do it on His terms, not ones we define.

    Most of us who are sad when a friend of loved one leaves the faith are neither judgmental nor unkind. On the contrary, it is our genuine love for the person that motivates us to keep encouraging, reaching out, and even mourn for the potential of lost opportunities. We all take a lot on faith in this life, but the small glimpses we have into a grander sphere of existence compel us to encourage every person on this earth–and especially those we already know and love–to keep the faith and continue with us. The reward is too great and the stakes too high to not try, and love is the motivation.

    And for those who temporarily or permanently choose a different path, we’ll continue to love you and pray for you, and wish you the best possible outcome of your choices. Though the ends of all paths are certainly not the same, there is joy and goodness to some degree in them all, and for that, I am grateful.

16. MayorofCrazytown
    August 26th, 2008 @ 11:25 am

    My grandma has often said, “There are going to be a lot of people when we get to heaven who are going to be surprised at who else is there and others that will be surprised they made it.” I don’t know where she got that or who the original source is, but I’ve always loved it and I often think about it especially when reading a post like this.

17. Stephen M (Ethesis)
    August 26th, 2008 @ 12:11 pm

    Those objections and issues and she goes to a Baptist church?

18. elizabeth-w
    August 26th, 2008 @ 12:12 pm

    I think what is hardest in this situation (being raised in the Church and then leaving/thinking of leaving) is the mental quandry of “you can doubt it is true, you can say it isn’t true, but you’re wrong–it doesn’t matter what you believe–the church IS still true”. It’s quite a headgame.
    Matt’s comment–And for those who temporarily or permanently choose a different path, we’ll continue to love you and pray for you, and wish you the best possible outcome of your choices–is an example of what fuels this kind of mental trap. We tell people, in essence, you think you know what is right, but we know better.
    Kate, I don’t mean to speak for you, but this has been some of my mental process.

19. "Kate" from the story
    August 26th, 2008 @ 1:30 pm

    Stephen M (Ethesis) Just as my name was changed, so was the church that we’ve attended since departing from the LDS church — no Baptist am I!

    I could write an entire post on the things that I love about the LDS church since we’ve attended other churches. There is so much that I admire about the organization.

    And on a personal note, I’ve read much of what you’ve written around the bloggernacle and have much respect for your thoughts and opinion.

    and

    Matt, I so appreciated your thoughts.

20. michelle
    August 26th, 2008 @ 2:45 pm

    “true to the faith.” I like that a lot. And Matt– thank you, thank you. FoxyJ, I’d love to hear more of your story!

    Cheryl and MidCity Gal– I fully admit that this post left me unsettled too! Like elizabeth-w said, it’s quite a headgame.

    Ty- sadly, the “all good comes from Mormonism” attitude is displayed a bit too often in Utah. You’re right that I should worry about my friend, I should be praying for ALL my friends.

21. edawn
    August 26th, 2008 @ 3:08 pm

    Most of us don’t “Know” for sure what is true. It is a matter of believing, and I think it is alright for somebody who really believes one way or the other to continue to show concern for our eternal welfare as long as it is loving and kind. Wouldn’t that make you feel good even if you believe that they are the ones who have it all wrong.

22. Anon
    August 26th, 2008 @ 4:15 pm

    What I wonder from “Kate” is how you leave (presumably full) church activity and explain that to your children. What is the conversation like where you tell them that so much of what you have taught them and exposed them to all their life is false? Or has it been a more gradual departure?

23. Lynne
    August 26th, 2008 @ 4:49 pm

    I truly believe that we will be judged on how well we treat others. Period.

    I have many family members and friends that have chosen to leave the church. And that is okay with me. It makes me sad but I cannot and should not force my beliefs on anyone. I live my life as best I can, and hope that I am a good example of someone trying to live up to Christ’s expectations of me.

    The one thing that truly bothers me is how rude some of them can be towards me and my family because I have chosen to stay true to the gospel. My little niece, who is 8, and goes to a rock-n-roll church, with her once LDS parents, said to my daughter that she was going to he**, because she was a Mormon. What?!?! Come on people, can’t we all just play nice?

24. Annette
    August 26th, 2008 @ 5:01 pm

    Fantastic post M.

25. Ashley
    August 26th, 2008 @ 6:09 pm

    “kate” i too have struggled from time to time with certain teachings of our church. I have come a hair away from leaving but am so afraid what everyone else will think of me, the way family will treat me. And I am afraid that because I know deep inside that this is the true church that I will never be satisfied with my choices just because I have issues with other things in the church. My family is very harsh already and i place them in the “holier than thou crowd” that often exists in Salt Lake. I hand it to you to follow your heart. How did you explain it to your family, neighbors, ward members, and especially your children?

26. Annie
    August 26th, 2008 @ 6:45 pm

    Michelle and Kate, thanks for this. I am the sole remaining sibling in my family who is still active in the church & also have friends who are in various stages of activity. I love them, accept them, honor their decisions as theirs alone and even admire their authenticity and bravery in following what they feel to be the right thing in the same way I admire new converts who follow their hearts into the church. (We encourage, after all, for seekers to study it out and ask if it is not true & to follow those answers). As you say, the issues are ones we all grapple with and we come to our peace and faith in different ways and from different directions.

    As for me, I choose to stay. I find so much uplift and joy and inspiration within the church. I love its doctrine. Do I struggle with some of the questions? Yes, but I know that the struggle is part of the journey and the answers that come are fortifying for me.

    I live on the east coast of the US and find great love and joy and goodness all around us in many forms. We don’t have a monopoly on goodness! I love what was said in a dialogue between Truman Madsen and Krister Stendahl (who became the Lutheran Bishop of Stockholm) about inter-faith dialogue: to compare bests with bests (not their worst aspects with your bests) and to leave room for “holy envy” (where you appreciate good things from each other’s traditions of faith). (Here’s the link for that: http://summatheologica.wordpress.com/2008/01/23/the-mormon-worldview-part-1/ .)

    I’ve decided my job right now is to try to learn the “love thy neighbor” precept. This will take me a long, long time…my whole life. I’ll leave the judging to God, who I believe will be inclusive and broad in his welcoming of his children.

27. Lynne
    August 26th, 2008 @ 6:50 pm

    I think when we are looking at a movie of our lives, many in the “holier than thou crowd” will be surprised at how some of their actions affected others around them.

28. Maddison
    August 26th, 2008 @ 7:06 pm

    Thank you. This means a lot to me. Thank you.

29. amanda
    August 26th, 2008 @ 8:33 pm

    Interesting post, and a lot of thoughts. Many that other readers have already shared. I will share just this one…

    When mellocello questioned the hypocrisy of church members, it hit close to home because I have had the same question. The way I reconciled it was to look at my own life, and see that I am just as much a hypocrite as anyone. *In my opinion* it is hard not to be a hypocrite as a member of most organized religious because we are imperfect beings. The things I believe and say will not match up with my actions all the time for that very fact. Just a thought…

30. b.
    August 26th, 2008 @ 9:41 pm

    Michelle and Kate the apostate…thank you, thank you, thank you for sharing this. I’m finding this is more common than I thought. I love that you have found the way to respect and love each other in spite of your differing beliefs. I needed this post.

31. Emily M.
    August 26th, 2008 @ 10:33 pm

    Michelle, I’ve been thinking about this all day. It is indeed unsettling. It’s much easier for me to believe that the devout Muslim on the other side of the world is following his or her own path to God, than it is for me to really truly believe that someone who has left the Church is doing the same thing. I think that, no matter how much love and respect I have for the “apostates,” and no matter how wonderful they are, I will always hope and pray for them to return to the church. I will try not to let that hope show too much, or color my interactions too much. I don’t want to preach or patronize. But the hope is always there, under the surface.

    I have felt the Spirit so thick it was almost tangible, felt it in the temple, and in ordinances. It witnesses truth to my soul. I will always want that witness for those I love, and believe that it’s a possibility for everyone. My respect for those who tread the apostate path is mingled with sorrow.

32. m&m
    August 27th, 2008 @ 12:43 am

    I keep trying to put my thoughts into words, but I find that what Emily M. said really sums up my thoughts. And whenever I try to say more, I just get repetitive, so I’ll just say ditto.

    No, I will add that it is *because* of my love for others that I always hope in my heart that they will either join or return to the Church. I have tasted of the sweet fruit and know it’s true. How can I not hope that others experience that? I can respect their choices and still hope for that, and I don’t think it would be right for me not to have such a hope given my convictions. I think we can give people space to believe and choose, and love them regardless of those choices, and respect the goodness they have, and still have such a hope.

33. m&m
    August 27th, 2008 @ 1:04 am

    Just one more thing…this is a quote from Elder Holland that sticks in my mind and that I have spent a while trying to find.

    “The first thing you will do when an investigator tells you he or she had not read and prayed about The Book of Mormon is be devastated. Much of the time we are just too casual about all of this. This is eternal life. This is the salvation of the children of God. Eternity hangs in the balance…. It is the most important path this investigator will ever walk. But if he or she doesn’t know that, at least you do!” (from a missionary satellite broadcast, reprinted in Preach My Gospel).

    Now, this is directed to missionaries who have a specific authority, but I think he gets across something important — that this does matter. It really is difficult for me when people don’t want to choose to be in the Church. I can’t (and don’t want to) force anyone to make this choice, and I must show love no matter what, and I can learn from and be grateful for good people everywhere — but I still care when they don’t want to go this path.

    There’s such a tension between respecting agency and preaching/sharing/testifying. We are to do both, and there is no set formula for how to approach it all. The Spirit is the key. That and true, Christlike love (which isn’t always about standing back, but sometimes means being bold, testifying, sharing!)

    (See? I still ended up rambling.)

34. michelle
    August 27th, 2008 @ 7:39 am

    Thanks for finding that quote m&m. You and Emily have given me a lot to think about this morning.

    And Amanda– that’s the most brilliant insight on hypocrisy I have ever read!

35. mellocello
    August 27th, 2008 @ 7:55 am

    Amanda, Justine, and Michelle, thanks for your kind words. Amanda, I like how you put it, we are all imperfect, so there will be hypocrisy. The church teaches to the ideal, so hypocrisy comes with the territory because none of us choose the ideal (or right?) one hundred percent of the time. I guess my comment about hypocrisy really stems from events, comments from GAs in the early chuch and current issues regarding the GAs and politics, as opposed to members that I personally know. I feel like a child who is being told by my parents what to do, but they are not telling me why, or I just don’t understand why. I feel like issues from the past in the early church taint what it is now, somehow. Most of the time my feelings don’t even make sense to me. It’s not a good feeling, or even a warning type of feeling that the spirit sometimes gives. It’s from a darker place, and I’m working on replacing it with goodness and love.

    I fear I have a rebellios spirit. Whenever I hear “shoulds” or “shouldn’ts” in church context, my mind immediately starts making excuses and justifying and questioning authority. It seems it’s been this way for awhile now, and I’m not sure how to break myself of this habit.

    Last night my husband gave my son a father’s blessing for the beginning of the school year. I did feel the holy spirit in our midst. It wasn’t as strong as I’d hoped or have felt before, but the spirit was there. Thankfully, it was there.

36. Christie
    August 27th, 2008 @ 8:22 am

    I love this, and that quote from Brigham is awesome.

    We DON’T have the corner of the market when it comes to Christian goodness. Truth be told, many times it’s been my non-LDS neighbors and friends who have provided me with better Christ-like examples than my best Mormon friends. I think what it all boils down to is we have to live what we believe, but we have to be open enough to respect what other people believe. Even when that means loving and not judging people who used to believe what we do.

    Well said, my friend.

37. Jonovitch
    August 27th, 2008 @ 10:33 am

    Here’s how I reconcile much of the stupidity in the Church: individual comments from anyone, no matter what their title, are just that — individual comments. Even if they are published by Deseret Book, they are still the personal opinions of one man (or woman), nothing more.

    I put more weight on individuals who are (1) apostles and (2) alive. I am careful to not take every word a General Authority said or wrote to be official doctrine. That is dangerous.

    But when the unified bodies of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles speak as one voice, they do so with the full authority that God gave them, and I can be confident they, collectively, are reflecting the will of God.

    It is very hard to get 15 intelligent men of diverse opinion and background to agree, so when they do, I listen.

    As for whether the Church is “true” or not, I’m not sure I even know what that phrase is supposed to mean. Every person who exercises their faith in Christ is drawing closer to him. Everyone. Mormons do not have the exclusive right to come closer to Christ.

    Having said that, God has invested in his Church (and only in his Church, as far as I can tell) the authority and right to perform what are called “saving ordinances,” which include baptism, the gift of the Holy Ghost, and the temple ordinances. You can’t go to Wisconsin for a Minnesota driver’s license, and you can’t find God’s authorized ordinances in any other Church. (Yes, I just claimed Minnesota to be the “one true state.”)

    So while anyone can grow closer to Christ and even “be saved”, through whatever path they choose, the authority to perform the ordinances that lead to exaltation (called the “saving ordinances” — confusing, I know) is only found today in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

    It all depends on how close in this life you want to get, I suppose, and how much of God’s word (through the official and collective words of his servants, not just random, individual opinions of random, individual General Authorities) you want to believe and adhere to, and whether you think divinely authorized ordinances matter. I sure do.

    Jon

38. Lynne
    August 27th, 2008 @ 11:42 am

    m&m – I like your point about using the Spirit to know if we should respect agency or share/preach. You are right, we are to do both. I think the Spirit guides us to what is right in each situation. I am the one who shared “The Birthday Present” here. (sorry, don’t know how to link) I felt a very strong feeling to share at that time. Has it come back? Not yet, but a small seed was planted.

    Jonovitch – I really liked your comment. I had never really thought about this before, but it makes sense to me. Thank you.

39. anonymous
    August 27th, 2008 @ 2:09 pm

    I left the church 21 years ago. I grew up going every week, graduating from seminary and then I started to question. At some point in your life, you have to ask yourself if everything you have been taught since the time you could walk was true. Did you have a choice? The guilt of not believing everything you were told starts to set in and you wonder why you are the only one with doubts. Why is it so easy for others to follow? What’s wrong with me? I have been an “apostate” for more than 21 years which is now more than 1/2 of my life. All of my friends are Mormon, I live in a predominantly Mormon neighborhood and my family is still Mormon. I am used to the “ward” talk and most of the activities associated with it.I enjoy some of the activities and knowing the people around me. I feel happy and fulfilled and have surrounded myself with people that don’t care what I believe. Like some, I don’t feel bitter or bothered. I feel grateful for my amazing husband and children and the friends who just accept me for me. Sundays are a great day for our family to just be together. I feel like I am in a better place outside because it forces me to see all sides of belief and experience things without preconceived ideas of how “it should be” or how it “compares”. As religion is sometimes forced, I feel that being open to feeling spiritual should come naturally. I feel spiritual in so many ways. Going to church doesn’t always cultivate spirituality. It just doesn’t work for everyone. I believe that should my children decide to ever become “active” and maybe even marry in the temple, I would gladly support their decisions because they are happy. Why should others be unhappy or sad if their child/friend/family member decides to leave the church? We on the “outside” don’t want your pity, just your unconditional love and respect. I know there will always be some that think they KNOW and that I just don’t get it,or I haven’t prayed hard enough,but it’s all about respect. I’ve prayed too and I just get different answers. So “Kate” hang in there, you will be just fine.

40. cheryl
    August 27th, 2008 @ 3:34 pm

    Anon-
    But just as Members of the Mormon Church “pity” those that leave, I have many, many friends and family members that “pity” me for believing. I think it cuts both ways, unfortunately.

41. Anoner
    August 27th, 2008 @ 4:10 pm

    Well said Jonovitch!

42. Stephen M (Ethesis)
    August 27th, 2008 @ 5:58 pm

    Stephen M (Ethesis) Just as my name was changed, so was the church that we’ve attended since departing from the LDS church — no Baptist am I!

    Ok. I was just thinking about many of the issues and wondering how you went from LDS to Baptist with your feelings on them. Sorry if I wondered and didn’t realize things had been changed.

    Thanks for the kind comments.

43. Red
    August 27th, 2008 @ 11:31 pm

    My Dad is apostate (rather late in his life) and I am always pleasantly surprised at how little that fact changes the fundamental relationships we share with him as father/in-law/daughter/grandchild. My sister, on her LDS mission in Armenia, considered buying him Armenian vodka because she knew he’d enjoy it (customs were going to be a killer $). Mature people can love those who don’t share every value in common.

    What a nice post and what a civil, decent dialogue has taken place here. Thanks.

44. wendy
    August 28th, 2008 @ 12:17 am

    Too many thoughts and too late an hour to write anything sensible, but I’ve found this conversation very interesting, and am going to give it a go anyway.

    For me, there are things I know, things I believe, things I don’t know yet, and things that really bother me. I had a serious questioning time over a decade ago where I held fast to the thought that repeatedly came to mind: “Keep your covenants, keep going to church, and this will sort itself out in time.” I did and it did. At present, I hold fast to the things I know and believe, and I occasionally pray for understanding about the other stuff (I was recently surprised when I received insight into a scripture verse–and related gospel topic–I’ve been confused about for years).

    I strongly agree with all the comments of the LDS church not having the corner of the market with goodness and truth. I also love what Jonovitch wrote and give an amen to all that was written. The authority and the saving ordinances are key, and are among the things I know.

45. jendoop
    August 28th, 2008 @ 8:34 am

    After quickly reading through all this I appreciate the comments and agree with most. One thing I have to add is a thank you to everyone who lives with integrity. I applaud Kate for living the life she feels is right for her, aligning her lifestyle with her beliefs. I also applaud those who believe the church is true and live it. For those who don’t believe but fake it, my heart mourns for you. Every path is different, be brave and live the life your heart speaks to you. You’ll grow and learn and have joy where ever you are, doing your best to be righteous as you see it. Never ‘fake it til you make it’.

46. Claudia
    August 31st, 2008 @ 6:26 pm

    I’ve been away for awhile. But, the quotation attributed to Brigham Young intrigued me so I decided to look it up. I cannot find the exact words. The one I found makes it clear he is talking about the Millennium and has a little different emphasis. Just for informational purposes I am entering it here. “Let me say a few words with regard to Zion. We profess to be Zion. If we are the pure in heart we are so, for ‘Zion is the pure in heart.’ Now when Zion is built up and reigns, the question may arise with some, will all be Latter-day Saints? No. Will there be this variety of classes and faiths that we now behold. I do not know whether there will be as many, or whether there will be more. But be that as it may, Jesus has gone to prepare mansions for every creature who. Who will go down as ‘sons of perdition’ and receive the reward of the damned? None but the who have sinned against the Holy Ghost. All others will be gathered into kindoms where there will be a certain amount of peace and glory…In the Millennium men will have the privilege of their own belief, but they will not have the privilege of treating the name and character of Deity as they have done heretofore. No, but every knee shall bow and every tongue confess to the glory of God the Father that Jesus is the Christ.”

47. nanajan
    September 1st, 2008 @ 4:40 pm

    Thanks for a thoughtful and inspiring post. I share your testimony, as well as your love and respect for those who have different views.

48. Harmoni
    September 9th, 2008 @ 9:06 am

    “Kate”
    I just wanted you to know that, your religion doesn’t define you as a person. I have known you for many many years and I know you are a Thinker, a Friend, a great mother, and a GREAT sister etc.. Please know that we (your friends) support you know matter WHAT.

    Love always
    The Hamz

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