Read a Book, Don’t Eat Horse Poop

Posted by Andrea R. | October 21, 2008 | 61 Comments

Emily lives in the South with her husband and two children. She writes under a pseudonym because she loves to vent but is deathly afraid of offending people. Someday she will write the great American novel and hopefully have the guts to use her own name.

I’ve got book club drama and no clue how to fix it. Even worse, I’m starting to wonder if this ship isn’t better left to sink.

First, a description of my book club: as a group, we’re not so literary. This hurts me to say. At the risk of sounding like a complete snob, I assumed that my friends appreciated good literature the same way I do. Not so. I’m a lifetime bibliophile and a closet writer, and I thought these women who seemed so smart, so cool, so fun, understood that fiction should be more than just entertainment. Again, not so. Instead of LDS women gathering to discuss literature, I got LDS women gathering, gossiping, and then confessing they didn’t actually read the book, but that their sister-in-law saw the movie and said it was awesome, and that the same sister-in-law happened to see Jude Law on the beach in Ft. Lauderdale over spring break and he was disappointingly flabby. Fun, but not exactly enlightening.

This summer, after a year of meetings, I paused to consider my continued participation in the group. Should I bother? Not wanting to seem like the elitist that I’m now revealing myself to be, I had spent the entire year stifling my irritation. Nobody wanted to discuss symbolism or character development, and books with unlikable protagonists were broadly disliked, and pretty much never picked. My own selection (which I’m standing by as one of my favorite books of all time!) was read in its entirety by only a few of the women for this exact reason—or at least I’m hoping it was dislike for the protagonist and not for me. During the few thematic discussions we actually had, it became apparent that many of the members were uncomfortable with dissenting opinions on anything. I could see them react as though someone were attacking the teacher in Relief Society. These discussions were inevitably hijacked and turned into testimony meetings on principals of Mormonism, which more often than not, had little to do with the book

After much deliberation, I opted to get off my high horse. Painful dismount. But I decided that while book club was less than intellectually thrilling, the trade-off was acceptable—I was building friendships with LDS women. For me, this is big fat deal. In fact, I’m less than a year from my 30th birthday and for the first time in my adult life I can say that LDS women are my best friends. These girls are inspiring in so many ways, and of course, I recognize that we can’t all have the same interests and talents. Would I want to be friends with women who are exactly like me? Definitely not.

So, with the second year of book club set to kick of in October, I decided to drop the attitude. I was thrilled to learn that the book chosen for this month is a book I read and fell in love with years ago. I remembered it as a brilliant piece of literature, but the details were hazy, so I was excited to re-read it. But before I even dug out my copy, reports began to filter in through the gossip mill: this month’s book has a BAD scene. My initial response was, “Huh?” I thought I recalled a single sex scene, but what I remembered didn’t come close to matching the intensity of the whispers on the park benches during playgroup—especially in comparison to some of the books we read last year. I had thought we were a fairly liberal group, as far as that went. The woman who was supposed to host the event and the woman who chose the book claimed that they had not read it (why, oh why, pick it then?), but that it had been highly recommended to them. After being informed of the “pornographic nature” of the novel, flipping to the scene in question and reading it out of context, they both decided that they didn’t feel good about reading the whole book. That’s right. They read the “bad” scene, and then refused to read the rest of the novel. Rather than canceling the event completely, they insisted that they didn’t want to force their standards on everyone else and book club would just be moved to someone else’s house. (Someone who was just evil enough to read the entire book and discover how very un-pornographic it is?) So book club is on Thursday (as in this Thursday) and it is shaking up to be an event where I am one of two people who has read the book. What happened to everyone else? Well, it turns out that very few wanted to take their chances being with being left on Satan’s side.

What to do? I know what not to do—attempt to convince anyone to read literature that makes them uncomfortable. I’m not going to be that person. But truthfully, I am very comfortable with my position and the literature that I read. So, while I don’t want to convince my friends to read the book, or any other, I would love to explain to them why this book isn’t pornography. They would find it interesting that my BYU English professors, some of whom were bishops and stake presidents on the side, assigned, read aloud, and discussed books far more sexually explicit than this one. That is part of studying literature. However, I don’t like justifying my actions with those of anyone else, including bishops, stake presidents and BYU professors. If it is good to read, it is not because other people are doing it. Simply, it must be “virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy.” But none of these preclude ugliness or violence or sexuality, as long as they are used purposefully and tastefully to enrich the work as a whole. At the risk of sounding corny, enlightenment is a journey, and sometimes to be uplifted we have to be thrown down. So yes, I believe in art painted with ugly colors, music that includes dissonant sounds, and literature that describes negative things. Not only do I tolerate it, but I see it is as necessary.

There is still, of course, a line to draw. I do it regularly—put down a book because the sex is gratuitous, or the language is too vulgar. I admit that I am impressionable, maybe even more than some readers, because I throw myself headfirst into books. But ultimately, I believe the discussion leads back where my book club issues started, the reason one picks up a novel in the first place. If I’m reading solely for entertainment, then perhaps this month’s book is pornographic. Refusing to look at lessons from the entire work, and using fiction merely as escape, puts the burden of meeting the 13th article of faith’s standards on every single scene. There is a particularly shocking verse in Moroni about the Lamanites forcing the Nephite women to eat the flesh of their husbands. Not pretty. If one were to read that verse and that verse only, they might have a hard time believing “a man would get nearer to God by abiding by (the book’s) precepts than by any other book.” But it does, and even that gruesome verse is necessary to understanding the book as a whole. It is a book of tragedies as well as miracles.

There is an analogy that I’m sure many of you have heard about how one small bit of horse manure ruins an entire batch of cookies. I agree. Don’t eat horse poop. But I don’t think it’s the best analogy for judging literature. I’ve come up with my own analogy that pinpoints baking soda as the offending ingredient. Eating just the teaspoon of baking soda would be disgusting (kind of like flipping to the bad scene, reading it, and then refusing to read the book). Don’t do that. But leaving it out of the recipe would change the final result. Maybe not ruin it. The cookie would still be edible, but the baker’s intended result is probably something better than edible.

Unfortunately, I don’t see how I can say any of this to my friends without sounding like a know-it-all or even worse, an agent of the devil. I think loyalty to my friend, the replacement host for what has now become Satan’s book club, dictates that I show up. She may be the only other person to have read the book. Loyalty to her, and to good literature, and to myself. But as for next month, I’m not so sure. I just might be reading alone.

Category: Daily Special

Comments

61 Responses to “Read a Book, Don’t Eat Horse Poop”

Nancy R.
October 21st, 2008 @ 11:22 am

I belong to a ward book club and the “leader” of that group only reads uber-clean books. All of the other women in the group only ready uber-clean books. One woman won’t let her kids read Harry Potter and another reads and approves all books her kids want to read. I do not believe that I read trash but I like good books and can see beyond a little bad language or sex. The great works of literature are full of characters who make poor choices. These women are obviously proud of their squeaky cleanness when it comes to books. But I am happy with my choice of books and I’d like to be able to say so, but I fear that I would then become evil in their eyes.
Laura Craner
October 21st, 2008 @ 11:27 am

I have totally been in your shoes! We had some trouble in my book club a while ago with Oscar Wilde’s _A Picture of Dorian Gray_. _Anna Karenina_ also raised a bit of a fuss. And, sadly, after four years my book club is disbanded because only two of us showed up for the last six months. I’m hoping it was a “season of life” issue and not because they all hate me

You know, if you do want to keep trying with your book group here’s something I learned: most people are intimidated by questions about themes and symbolism. I think it makes them feel like they are back in high school or something. How I tried to get discussion going was by relying more on reader response theory. You know, questions like, “Who did you identify with and why?” Or, “Have you ever been in a similar situation in your life? What was the same and what was different?” Or, in the case of an antagonist, “Have you ever known anyone like this? Who?” Other good discussion questions were simple ones like, “Why was the book titled what it was? How would you title it?” It also helped to link the books or short stories or poems to pop culture or current events. Of course, the burden was usually on me to tie the discussion back to the book but we fairly often could stay on topic for about forty-five minutes. And I considered that a success.

I also think it’s worth remembering that meaning is usually vested in the reader and readers read for a variety of reasons–none of which are better than others. They simply are. Different books meet different needs in people’s lives. And really, it’s those needs and those people that make books–virtuous, lovely, of good report, or whatever–worthwhile. Remembering that helped me appreciate some book club meetings that I wouldn’t have otherwise.
lyn
October 21st, 2008 @ 11:34 am

Do I know you?! Just kidding – but your struggles are so uncannily like what we’ve been going through with our book club. Right down to the person who picked the book hadn’t read it, refused to read/host it. We’ve ended up with a “sometimes together/sometimes apart” solution…. during several months of the upcoming year, we have a “fluffy” book to complement a more literary book. Not sure how it will work out – but hopefully it will fill vastly different needs that women have in a book club.
Autumn Zobrist
October 21st, 2008 @ 11:37 am

I think your analogy using baking soda is spot on!! I’ve abandoned Mormon book groups for all the reasons you’ve mentioned. There were just too many experiences where the default setting included judging other people’s choices and not actively engaging in a piece. It made me sad, but it just didn’t work out. For me, there are easier ways to be friends with Mormon women.
Barb
October 21st, 2008 @ 11:43 am

Now I’m dying to know what the book is!

I was just asked to start a book club in my ward and I’m nervous. Most of the women who signed up are my mom’s age which in and of itself is not a problem, but when you add in that many of them requested that the book club read LDS books only, I’m starting to freak out.
shelah
October 21st, 2008 @ 11:50 am

Lyn (comment #3) and I are co-leaders of the same book group, and she just emailed me and asked if I was writing under a pseudonym at Segullah. I started the book club in the ward three years ago, and for the first year, we were lucky to have three women at the group each month. But the ward grew (we’re unofficial because we don’t want the Bishop telling us what we can and can’t read) and the book club grew accordingly. At our selection night last month we had 20 women and about 75 books suggested. You can check out the list of what we’re reading here and also see how the “sometimes together, sometimes apart” method will work this year. We can report back in a year and let you know if it was a success or a disaster!
http://shelahbooksit.blogspot.com/2008/10/what-our-book-club-is-reading-2008-2009.html
Giggles
October 21st, 2008 @ 12:00 pm

I’m with Barb. I want to know what the book was so I can go read it now. Yes, I’m that person.

I was once part of a discussion while I was in high school where a person was horrified that BYU would have a copy of “Lord of the Flies” in the library. Having not read the book yet, I was looking forward to finding out what was just so bad about that book when I read it a few months later. I was disappointed it wasn’t as bad as that person had made it out to be.

Not only do I have a hard time understanding people who won’t read books for those reasons, but people who just don’t read at all. I moved this year and had 23 boxes of books. Some of the young men who helped me unload my truck couldn’t name ten books they’d read from cover to cover.
Fig
October 21st, 2008 @ 12:08 pm

I agree with you – as eloquent and intelligent as your reasoning is, it’s probably not a good idea to throw it down on your book club friends.

I will read [almost] anything, but I am super picky about what I will view in movies. I abstain from judging or preaching to my more liberal movie-watcher friends and family, and they extend me the same courtesy with regards to my reading. Most of the time.

I do think you should tactfully suggest that the book selection process be revised. No one gets to suggest a book without having read it or at least researched it enough to know that it’s “acceptable”. Creating that kind of division in the club (those who are too good for it, those who are okay with it) isn’t cool.
Carina
October 21st, 2008 @ 12:28 pm

OK, bear with me, this might sound snobby:

There are very few people with whom I can share a certain level of intellectual communication (but many of them will be reading this post!)

I have learned that some women either aren’t, or don’t want to be, capable of deep discussion. It’s hard, sometimes it’s lonely, but I think you save that part of yourself for some other gathering.

You can continue to send out feelers every once in a while to see if you’ve found a friend who is willing to go to another level. Otherwise, you just learn to accept the friendship of your sisters and leave your intellect at home waiting for you.

I don’t think you should go back after this month. I’ve been there, and it usually leads to getting frustrated and angry with your friends. Keep looking for another group of friends with whom you can reach the kind of mental gymnastics you desire.
Amira
October 21st, 2008 @ 12:33 pm

I remember one time when there was an uproar in a book group I used to be in about Peace Like a River. Someone was so offended by it that she started collecting copies of the book from other group members. (Yes, you might be confused by this if you’ve read that book; I certainly was.)

The group leader handled it perfectly though. The meeting for that month was not hosted at the house of the offended woman (although she did come that month). The group leader invited someone from another ward to come and discuss the book- someone who had loved the book and did an excellent job. It turned out to be a lovely evening becausee different viewpoints had been expressed that month.

What is the point of a book group if you can’t bring up opposing ideas? I think it’s important to bring up your concerns. No one has to agree with you, but it’s so important to say.

(I did attend one book group that was almost perfect. We read good books, almost always, and all viewpoints were welcome, but no one was overbearing. I miss it.)
courtney
October 21st, 2008 @ 1:05 pm

That is exactly why I hated being in charge of my ward’s book club! I was so worried about offending people that I only chose young adult literature– fun and entertaining, but not what I want out of a book club.

I love the baking soda analogy and the reference to the BOM– my husband and I were discussing this the other day concerning movies: the difference between a depiction of evil and an actual evil movie. You do have to know your own limits, but you shouldn’t throw the baby out with the bathwater. Isn’t this the perfect example of opposition in all things?

When I was an English major at BYU, professors would always make the disclaimer that just because there was “questionable” material in some of the readings didn’t mean they were endorsing the actions. If anything, reading that material is safest in a setting where you can discuss it with others who understand your background and your own moral compass. Also reading it with LDS friends would help everyone put it in to context and know how to register it. I’m a big fan of healthy discussion.

I am another who is very curious about what book this is!
Emily
October 21st, 2008 @ 1:20 pm

Hi, it’s me, the post-er. I feel so validated by all of your comments! It’s great to hear how other women have handled the same situation. Thank you. And I’ll put you out of your misery. The book is Bel Canto by Ann Patchett.

Amira, Peace Like A River? Seriously?

Oh, and my un-read selection from last year was Atonement by Ian McEwan. I liked this choice better before the movie came out and made it so mainstream. Why is it that when Hollywood and/or Oprah endorses a favorite book I feel like something has been stolen from me? Oh well, it was and still is a great book.
Lucy
October 21st, 2008 @ 1:34 pm

Ahh. The perfect storm.

The first bookgroup I was ever invited to was a relief society enrichment group. The first month’s book was The Christmas Jar (tame), but it was also chosen for the month of November and I blamed its selection on the time of year.

After the holidays, bookgroup resumed and although I cannot remember the book, I remember receiving a call that a certain sister found some of its language as well as some scenes objectionable. As a service to the group, she proceeded to distribute photocopied chapters of the book with blacked-out words and paragraphs.

Horrified, I left the group. I applaud those women who choose for themselves to put down books they find objectionable, but, like you said, I think there is a difference between reading for entertainment and reading because reading is what you do. I read. I choose wisely (most of the time) and after I’ve read a book, I like to find peers to discuss it with.

I’ve heard the manure analogy (only the ingredient was added to Brownies thus making it completely more subtle:)) and decided that I must have a taste for it. I think language is powerful and respect when an author uses it thoughtfully. Likewise with sex.

I think most of us have been in your bookgroup at one time or another. I know I have. And I constantly battle between enjoying the gossip and wishing it were different.
Lucy
October 21st, 2008 @ 1:35 pm

Just read your above comment and have read and enjoyed all three books. Manure indeed. Sigh.
Angela
October 21st, 2008 @ 1:44 pm

I mentioned this quote a few months ago in one of my posts, but I’m going to repost it again because I love it so much. Here it is, from the horse’s mouth, so to speak:

“‘Shall I sit down and read the Bible, the Book of Mormon, and the Book of Covenants all the time?’ says one. Yes, if you please, and when you have done, you may be nothing but a sectarian after all. It is your duty to study to know everything upon the face of the earth in addition to reading those books. We should not only study good, and its effects upon our race, but also evil, and its consequences.”
-Brigham Young

I am convinced that reading good literature makes us better people. One of the things that makes good literature GOOD, though, and more than simple entertainment, is that it deals with conflict and pain, choices and consequences. Although I can appreciate some people’s sensitivity to language and sex (and I have my own personal line in the sand I won’t cross), I think it’s impossible to have a functioning book club without reading books that at least attempt to grapple with tough issues and acknowledge ambiguity.

Does everything we read have to do this? Of course not. I read books for entertainment all the time. But the best book clubs are not dessert clubs with paperbacks. They are opportunities for women to get together and discuss important stuff. Those book clubs are often hard to find, though . . . but when you find one it’s dynamite.
Jennie
October 21st, 2008 @ 2:06 pm

I avoid church-sanctioned book clubs because I don’t want to stick to the squeaky clean stuff.

If it’s a private book club, I think it should be anything goes. That being said, my last book club ended up being about the friendship. It wasn’t very literary, and the discussions tended to be more about how people felt about the book in general. What they liked, what they didn’t, etc. At the end of the day, I would have to say that I treasured the friendship more than the literary discussions.

I guess that is the question that we have to ask ourselves: which do we want more? Friends or mental stimulation? It would be nice to have both, but that doesn’t happen very often.
cheryl
October 21st, 2008 @ 2:10 pm

I have been blessed to belong to not just one, but two –TWO! –amazing book groups. Each group of women enjoy good literature, intense discussions, and love to throw themselves into books. One of these book clubs (which is my current one) has been meeting for over 20 years and I’m one of the youngest participants (I’m almost 30); in fact, I’m the youngest by about 10 years! These women are wonderful because not only are they inelligent, they are good and righteous, too. They understand –like you, Emily –that a good book will always have something uncomfortable in it. In fact, most of my favorite books have a lot of discomfort! Does that mean squeaky clean books are bad? No, not necessarily, but they can’t illicit the types of discussions needed to pull off any kind of justification in holding a book club.
Like Angela said? My book club is dynamite!
(Emily! Move here and join it!)
Andrea R.
October 21st, 2008 @ 2:14 pm

I’m in Emily’s book club, and I have to echo the things she said. It’s been a challenge. I agree with Carina that sometimes people just don’t WANT a deep discussion and are more interested in a dessert club with paperbacks. Sometimes I’m in the mood for that too, but often, I really want to just dig into a book and talk about it. To me, it’s a fun, intellectual process. It’s hard if when you criticize a book that the person who picked it feels that you’re criticizing them personally.

I also really enjoyed Angela’s quote from Brigham Young. I love the scriptures, but I don’t want them to be my only source of reading. Emily and I were commenting the other day that President Hinckley was a reader, and he must have come across the same things we are discussing. Where did he draw the line? I would love to see what was on his bookshelf. THAT would make a great book club!
Dawn
October 21st, 2008 @ 2:14 pm

Too bad we can’t be in a book club together. Your experience is exactly why I’ve never joined our ward’s book club. I’ve heard similar discussions/gossip etc. and chose to just enjoy my books on my own.
mobile sloth
October 21st, 2008 @ 2:56 pm

Book club?? I wish, I wish, I wish!!! Oh you are all so lucky!! I live in a culture and country that is not my own, and where many people don`t seem to read, so a book club in English, let alone with other LDS would be a dream come true! And yes, I will read pretty much anything too lol
Karen
October 21st, 2008 @ 3:18 pm

What does it say about me that when I read about women not reading a certain book for bookclub because it isn’t ‘good’ enough, I write the book down on my list of books to read?

I wish I was part of a book club. But I don’t want it to be only “church” books. Since “church” books seem to be what others are thinking about when I have suggested book clubs in the past, I’ve been hesitant to start one.

I would realy like to have some good discussions about books I have read.

It seems that there are at least a couple of women in your group who are willing to try new books. Maybe all the rest will drop out, and you will have a smaller but happier group.
Tiffany
October 21st, 2008 @ 3:26 pm

If you only choose squeaky clean books, then you can’t ever read any of the Bible. Sex, incest, rape, murder, adultery, violence. . .

And there are some pretty bad scenes in the Book of Mormon.

I understand that people don’t want their minds “tainted” so to speak by bad scenes in novels, but there is much to be said for critical thinking about novels and the purpose of characters who make bad choices.

Last year I read The Kite Runner for the first time. Of course, there is a really troubling scene in the book. I had to stop reading for a day or two because it completely disturbed me, but then I finished it a few days later. That book taught me more about redemption and forgiveness than many a sermon has done.
Melissa the Librarian
October 21st, 2008 @ 3:35 pm

I agree with many of the concerns and problems expressed about great books. Sometimes we need to read about uncomfortable things, sometimes we need to put down a book. I feel good about doing both.

However, I think “squeaky clean books” can provide meaningful discussion, perhaps especially when an author can broach difficult subjects without using bad language or sex.

I also have discovered that many young adult books are literary, in addition to the many “fun and entertaining” ones.

Of course, I think it would be great to be in a book group where women had widely varying opinions and tastes about books – I need to broaden my horizons.
wendy
October 21st, 2008 @ 3:47 pm

Okay, so I’m getting afraid to say anything here on this subject!

I am the most conservative participant in our book club. If a book is chosen that I know I’ll have a hard time getting through, I don’t complain about it and I still come and participate in the discussions.

I have my reasons for being picky about content, one of them being over-exposure to some horrific subjects in my work, which I’ve mentioned here before.

I understand people being upset for how some women have handled their purist preferences. I hope, though, that I am afforded the freedom to be selective without being judged, just as so many of you want the freedom to read what you want.

I consider myself far from sheltered. I also love participating in deep discussions and understanding the depths of life. That doesn’t mean I have to read things I don’t feel good about. Please remember that there is nothing wrong with not wanting to read certain things. It’s the condemning attitudes that are the problem.
Claudia
October 21st, 2008 @ 3:48 pm

The best book club I ever participated in was really not a book club at all. The whole group didn’t read the book. Each month there were three persons involved in the planning and presenting. One was a hostess the other her helper and the third was the presenter. The hostess provided her home and a meal. The helper assisted her and between the two of them they called everyone and gave them the details of where and when the meeting would be.The presenter read a book of her choosing and reported on it. It was an unofficial group and the woman who started it passed around a sign up sheet at the first of each season so the members could sign for the date when they would be hostess. Then the following month they would be helper and the third month the presenter. We were exposed to a lot of different books and different genres. It was the best possible way to get to know people and feel involved and not bicker over what book to read.

In most of the groups I have been part of we have voted on the book of the month so that pretty much took care of complaints about the kinds of books that were chosen.

By the way I laughed out loud when I read people were complaining about Bel Canto. I enjoyed it immensely.
wendy
October 21st, 2008 @ 3:57 pm

Melissa the Librarian, your comment came up when I was writing mine. Well said–thank you!
Jane @ What About Mom
October 21st, 2008 @ 3:57 pm

Fascinating discussion.

I’ve been wanting to write a post about the f-word, and why I love it so. I read Paddy Clarke Ha Ha Ha at BYU in one of my favorite classes (British Lit w/ Phil Snyder) and there’s a part where the youthful narrator describes the appeal of the f-word.

But I’m scared to post about this (can’t reconcile using “the f-word” in quoting from the book and confessing my own predilection). But to just write it out? What would Grandma think? What would my non-Mormon friends think? Would I want my kids to read it (obviously they’ve heard me say the word)?

Anyone else have a problem writing or wanting to write — fiction or nonfiction — stuff that they feel would be inconsistent with their “standards”?

In other words — anyone else read stuff they would never feel comfortable writing themselves? (And is this a form of hypocrisy — or just a sign that I am really not a Writer?)
Emily M.
October 21st, 2008 @ 4:06 pm

Thanks for that, Wendy and Melissa.

I have looser reading standards than watching standards. I love a good literary discussion. But I appreciate some content sensitivity as well.
Fairchild
October 21st, 2008 @ 4:48 pm

My least favorite book club experience was a ward book club that read LDS nonfiction like “Infinite Atonement” and “Eve and the Choice Made in Eden.” Those books are okay, but everyone was gushing about them and acting like they were scripture. I found things I disagreed with in both books (that seemed to contradict church doctrine!) but seemed to be the only one, so I kept my mouth shut. It made me very uncomfortable because my dad apostacized partially from studying unofficial sources of doctrine. I think people need to keep in mind that these books are peoples’ OPINIONS and NOT official church doctrine. That’s my RS Book Club soap box. I’m in a Book Club now with LDS women that is not affiliated with any ward so we read anything we want (we can be as controversial as we want!) and rarely LDS books. I like it much better.
dalene
October 21st, 2008 @ 6:04 pm

Melissa, Wendy and Emily M.–I agree.

To each her own, but I’ve seen the condemnation of others’ choices (of books or whether to read or not to read a certain selection) happen on both sides and that’s when it crosses the line for me and can ruin a good book club.

I know I’ve said it before, but I once got panned for picking Anna Karenina and another time I actually recalled a book I’d chosen (that had been recommended to me) because it seemed gratuitous to me–so I guess I’ve been on both sides of the coin. (I got panned for choosing to read Shakespeare once, too…and Reading Lolita in Tehran… Wow! No wonder I’m kind of a book club dropout.)
Lindsay
October 21st, 2008 @ 6:23 pm

I’m not sure where I was when I saw this bookmarked but I thought I’d add it here. Interesting stuff.

http://speeches.byu.edu/reader/reader.php?id=8985
Julie P (rarely home mom)
October 21st, 2008 @ 8:02 pm

This is such an interesting discussion. I agree with whomever suggested bowing out of the book group. Gracefully, of course.

I’m currently in a book group where 1 or 2 people each month read the selection. It used to frustrate me, especially since I was coming from what could easily be the most dynamite book club in existence, and also because the other women didn’t read, but also didn’t want to discuss anything about or relating to the book. Now, I’ve just decided to let it go, enjoy the company of my friends, and think of it as a girls night out.

Before you mentioned what book you talked about in the post, I was wondering if it was _The Other Boleyn Girl_. A packed book (that I quite enjoyed) with so much to discuss, that has been known to break apart more than one predominantly LDS book club.
shelah
October 21st, 2008 @ 8:53 pm

Eclipse almost did ours in. Between the ones who loved the series, the ones who hated the series, and the ones who set it down when an LDS author had an unmarried couple lie down in the same bed, it was quite a night…
Carina
October 21st, 2008 @ 8:57 pm

Shelah, seriously?

Hahaha, if I had chocolate milk it would be squirting out my nose.
she-bop
October 22nd, 2008 @ 12:11 am

My mom has been in a book club for over 25 years with members that have been in both the YW general presidency and the RS general presidency over the years and some of the books they have read SURPRISED me. Just saying…..

I have my own book club and it’s only member is me. I love to read. I think it’s important to read all types of literature. I don’t want anyone else telling me what is okay for me to read.

I love the idea of getting together with other women, just maybe not in a book club. (Although I would so enjoy the discussions.) I think it’s rare indeed to find the perfect one, so maybe just be happy with the company and don’t worry so much about any in-depth convo.
kathy
October 22nd, 2008 @ 4:30 am

I am sorry… I take issue with almost evrything you said. I do see your point. I have gone through the BYU english department– as a major. I understand but do not agree with or enjoy this philosophy. What you are describing sounds a little bit like mans teachings, with a pathetic smathering of scripture. Are you really comparing the word of God to the word of man? It sounds a little like you think less of someone because they are trying to do their best to stay unspotted from the world. I noticed mention of loyalty to your friend but what about loyalty to your God? Is maintaining your stance really worth offending Him? Choosing the better part does not mean that I am less intellectual than you nor does it mean you are more refined. If this is what you believe… fine. But don’t think less of me because I don’t.
Kelly Simmons
October 22nd, 2008 @ 5:37 am

Oh boy. What a can of worms! As an author who has visited many, many book clubs this year, I encountered lots of people who are in 2 (or even 3) book clubs. If you were to join or to form another one with fewer, more literary people, you can get your literary fix and still go to the other group too.

Kelly Simmons
author of STANDING STILL
bykellysimmons.com
Kathryn Soper
October 22nd, 2008 @ 6:34 am

kathy: I can understand why you’re feeling so defensive, but I think you’re misunderstanding the post.

What she’s saying is that in certain contexts, scenes like the one in question don’t necessarily “spot” anybody, and that the “better part” just might include some ugliness.

And yes, the BOM is a great example. Right after Mormon describes Nephite YM torturing, raping, and then eating the Lamanite YW, he tells Moroni, “may Christ lift thee up.” The beauty of the good is only fully revealed in contrast to the ugly.

It’s presumptuous at best to say that such an approach to literature is disloyal and offensive to God.
jendoop
October 22nd, 2008 @ 7:31 am

This post could have been written by me, three times. We’ve lived in 3 different places and in three different places bookgroup has had issues.

Mainly my problem is looking forward to an intellectual discussion about the book only to have the most intellectual comments about how the book relates to the gospel. Not that I’m against things relating to the gospel, but let’s go beyond those sunday school answers.

Emily, I loved Bel Canto, it was such a great book for discussion. In my first bookgroup we had waves over The Red Tent, one sister took the book straight to the bishop, didn’t even give the bookgroup sisters a chance. Yes, it was an ugly scene. I didn’t appreciate some things from the book either but I knew it wasn’t my place to make that decision for others. So I went to the discussion and we talked about why those scenes may have bothered some people and not others (of course the offended sister didn’t attend, why talk about it with people who’ve actually read the book?).

It was our policy that if you found the book offensive stop reading but still attend the discussion so we can thus DISCUSS what was offensive. It is interesting to understand what bothers one person doesn’t bother another.

Now to get a well-rounded and fulfilling bookgroup experience I participate in three. One is at the local library with a rich mixture of life experience and morals, amazing insights. The other two are in local wards but they have very different book selections and discussions. These are my main means for socialization and I’m so grateful for all of them.
courtney s.
October 22nd, 2008 @ 7:39 am

Emily:

Thank you for your post. It perfectly captures the reason why I refuse to join any book clubs or even suggest books for others to read. I’ll just talk about what I’m reading and why I love it, but I always include a disclaimer that I don’t censor what I read and so women should know that.

To the many other women who commented, thank you for your insights, your words give me great hope that the church is full of bright, searching women who understand that truth can be found in fiction.

Please if you are posting on this board,speak up to other women, tell us what you are reading and what you learned from it. Give me hope.

from one other mormon in the south
Kim
October 22nd, 2008 @ 8:30 am

I also appreciate reading that others struggle with this. My first book club experience was amazing–challening, opened my eyes to books I’d never have picked on my own, and fascinating discussions that went on for hours (much to our husbands’ dismay, as they would start calling around 11 pm, wondering if we were okay.) Since then, I have been part of 2 book clubs and while I enjoy them for the social aspect and even the book suggestions, I have mostly been dissappointed with the discussions–most of them stay pretty shallow and while that’s ok, I just miss the deeper thoughts and the disagreements that led me to new ideas.

I have yet to come upon the offended issue–at least, no one has said it outloud. THere have probably been people who have opted out of certain months I know I did one month, but I wasn’t in the least upset they had chosen the book–it was just one I wasn’t sure I could handle the subject matter and so I decided to skip that month–not a big deal to me, and I’m guessing that others have done the same (my second book group was pretty large so we always had a different group of people there).

Oh, and none of my book clubs have been ward-sponsered, although they have all 3 been composed mainly of LDS women. I think that it makes a big difference–I dont’ have a problem with wards having official book clubs, but I do agree that they would have to be very careful in their book selections. And I don’t see that as censorship, but just as to what is appropriate at a church activity that is actually sponsered by the church. I have heard of some pretty fascinating ward book clubs who have gone beyond mormon authored fiction, but still stayed in the realms of appropriate within the gospel setting.

I personally feel like I’ve had to choose what I am willing to take from book club, and for now, I am just glad to be making friends in a new city (also in the south) where I knew no one 4 months ago. And maybe I will try to come up with a couple “deeper” questions to throw out there each month. Maybe these women would actually be happy to discuss different themes but just need someone to guide the discussion. I know I can’t complain about it until I’ve tried to inspire the conversation. But I do miss how easily it came from those women who I knew In San Diego.
Sarah
October 22nd, 2008 @ 9:10 am

Thank you so much for your comments. As an LDS woman and an English teacher, I agree with you. There are elements of many books that — taken out of context — could make the book seem trashy or pornographic. (I admit that I also have put down a few books because of the language or inherent sexuality that I couldn’t quite swallow.) One of my favorite books is Atlas Shrugged. It contains a few sexual scenes, but if you read the entire book you understand the symbolism of those scenes in relation to the entire book. The book is a masterpiece and MUST be looked at as a whole, as with all books to be judged for merit and not for entertainment value.
Kathy
October 22nd, 2008 @ 10:28 am

Kathryn,
It is not my intent to be overly defensive — or offensive for that matter.

I believe I do understand this post quite well. The author loves literature. And good for her. More people should delve into the literary arts. She wants to enjoy reading books with her dear friends but finds their opinions on some topics (as in what is acceptable) to be conflicting. While she doesn’t condone or read “trash” she appreciates a book that explores the “other side of life” with taste and dignity. She can’t understand why others she enjoys being around find it offensive, for her, it is a part of the grand literary scheme. That being said, being well versed in literature does not mean you have to explore various issues. The author has made it clear, as have MANY of those posting replies, that this is odd. Why should be offended by something that is “tastefully done?”

The whole mood of the post faults people who feel differently. The response from many of the readers is the same. That causes me concern. Am I seriously in the minority here?

Yes, the Book of Mormon does make mention of horrible events. Ones, that if described or explored in detail, would take away from the spirit of the book. It does not explore “tastefully” or otherwise the rape and cannibalism. It only mentions it, to teach us what can happen to our society. It is only referred to, not explored. It is then followed by sacred verse.

The bible also makes mention of even more horrific crimes. Some in more detail than I am personally comfortable with (a few chapters in the Old Testament specifically). Also, the Song of Solomon could be quite titillating to some. But, we have to remember what our leaders have said regarding the bible… “as long as it has been translated correctly.” Also, we have been taught that the bible is NOT in its most pure form and even that the Song of Solomon is not an inspired book of scripture.

So, while I understand the comparison drawn between the Book of Mormon and the “book club book” I do not agree with it.

I also do not believe that people who choose to refrain from reading these things should be looked down upon in the intellectual community. I personally feel that you can create an amazing work of art, piece of literature and film WITHOUT swearing, exploring the “dark side of life” or defiling that which is most sacred (ie: sex). In my opinion, it takes an author of greater talent and creativity to not give in to the norm, and in the case of LDS authors who know what standards the Lord wants us to embrace, develop a work of art without compromising those standards.

Can we really believe that when the Lord asked us to seek things that are virtuous, lovely and of good report that He meant to put in the footnotes, “and make sure the sex is tastefully done” or “only use profanity if adds to the piece as a whole” – I don’t think so. I think we need to do our best to avoid those things. We each interpret it differently and I see the women who walked away from this book as courageous. It isn’t an easy thing to do. The comments made by the author about being loyal to her friend were interesting to me. I suppose you are right that she did not see it as offensive or disloyal to God. And yet, the only ones she was worried about offending were in the group. I don’t believe our decisions should be made that way. I think we should worry first about offending God and then let things fall where they may.

To assume that anyone who is not comfortable reading something that was “tastefully done” is less intelligent or intellectual that the rest, is quite disheartening. I will be the first to admit that I am not the brightest bulb in the box, but I am intelligent. I choose to avoid these things because I want to. I don’t want to take any risk at offending the Lord. And if this is the way I choose to show my devotion to Him, then I should be supported, not faulted. It is not a weakness to want to avoid profanity, evil and “artistic” sex.

Again, I can not believe that I am the only reader here that believes this way. But if I am, so be it. I have always been conservative in my views and I know that not everybody feels the same way. That is fine. I love the diversity that comes with knowing a wide variety of people. It brings richness to life. But that does not mean I have to embrace those views that differ from my beliefs.

Like I said earlier, it is not my intention to offend. I wanted to share my opinion as another (symbolic) voice in the book club. There are many here who talk about how hard it is for them to deal with people like me, but I wanted to give my side of the “story.”
Emily M.
October 22nd, 2008 @ 11:19 am

I’m going to quote Kim again, because for me it is the perfect response to this situation:

“There have probably been people who have opted out of certain months I know I did one month, but I wasn’t in the least upset they had chosen the book–it was just one I wasn’t sure I could handle the subject matter and so I decided to skip that month–not a big deal to me, and I’m guessing that others have done the same.”

Ah. Live and let live. What a concept.

I think the problem we get in both directions is when people feel like others are judging them for the books they choose to read, or choose not to read.

This is a hard thing. It’s easy for me puff myself up or feel… more righteous than others because I won’t read certain things. And it’s also easy for me to look down on those who just “can’t handle” a book with mature themes that I’ve fallen in love with.

I stand in the middle, I guess, and from that vantage point I want to say, I think we have more in common than not. All of us love a good story, and all of us love to read, and all of us want the people in the other camp to think well of us. To not judge us for loving what speaks best to our souls.

So, can we do that? Can we say to people who don’t like to pick out the poop/baking soda, that’s okay? We love you, and we acknowledge your pure desires. And to the people who want a challenging story, even if it means a bit of poop, yes, you are good people too. I can’t read that book, but I’m not going to judge you because you can, and find depth and meaning in it?

Maybe the two camps can’t always share a book club. But I do think that we need to have as much love and respect for each other as we possibly can, and refrain from passing judgment on another’s righteousness based on their choice of reading material.

This is a test of charity, of our ability to see others as they really are and see the best in them, see them as God sees them.
Justine
October 22nd, 2008 @ 11:22 am

I am a conservative person, Kathy, but I have gained an enormous shift in understanding as I read about the many different types of lives that people lead here on earth. My experiences would be considered narrow and cloistered by many standards, and understanding that the world does not exist solely as I see it has opened my eyes and increased my empathy and compassion.

I agree that much of sex, violence, and language can be gratuitous in their delivery, and yet I cried for hours as I read of the experiences of Chinese slave girls. Their lives mirror NOTHING of my life, and by so understanding their struggle more, I expand my ability to react in caring ways. I seek to understand, not just wallow in self-indulgence.

I could hardly read The Kite Runner. I set it down several times. Yet I have gained a greater appreciation and understanding of a culture I knew little of. How can we hope to get along in this world of vastly different experiences, and find commonality if we are not willing to first find understanding and compassion?
AD
October 22nd, 2008 @ 12:09 pm

Just wanted to say that I laughed out loud at points in this post. Satan’s book club, indeed. I’m scratching my head about the bad scene in Bel Canto…can’t remember it. Just remember the lovely story. I guess that is your point.

This post has prompted some great comments which help us all have more understanding for one another, whether we are like you or like our friends who take a more conservative approach to the books they read. There is room in this world (and church) for all of us. I love that.

One thing I have asked myself is why I feel comfortable reading books that would clearly be R-rated if they were films…I abstain from R-rated films because the bad language and sex in film offends my spirit. But I have read books that have inappropriate language (have learned to skip the words without hearing them in my mind) and some sex scenes, but I don’t feel the same personal offense. I wonder why that is… Any ideas?
Emily M.
October 22nd, 2008 @ 12:25 pm

AD, I’m the same way. I read books I couldn’t watch. And I don’t know why that is.

I agree that there’s room for us all in the Church. And I also think it’s good to wrap our heads around the possibility that the Spirit can inspire two people to do opposite things with regards to a certain book. For example: last summer a book group I was attending chose a book that I had felt strongly prompted that I should not continue reading. This book was life-altering for one member of our group, and she explained how it had expanded her vision of herself and some problems she had had. I very much appreciated the way she discussed the book without making me feel like a goody-goody for not reading it. She respected my inspiration. And I respected hers–the book was a blessing to her, and I think she was guided by the Spirit to read it, just as I was guided not to.
Kathryn Soper
October 22nd, 2008 @ 12:32 pm

Kathy, I could respond to your comment point by point, but I don’t think that would get us anywhere.

Suffice it to say: The “whole mood” of the post varies with the reader, as does the “whole mood” of every text. You can’t filter out your point of view when you’re evaluating what was written here. Please consider the possibility that the author’s stance is more nuanced than you perceive.

I don’t believe your right to not read x, y, or z is being challenged. I believe the author’s lament regards those who refuse to consider that there’s more than one moral approach to literature. If you belong to this group, consider yourself irrevocably at odds with the author (and myself), and let that be that. If you believe there’s more than one way to be a “righteous reader,” then we really have nothing to argue about here.

I agree with Emily M. that the overarching point here is to avoid self-righteousness, no matter where our personal line-in-the-sand regarding literature may be.
Emily
October 22nd, 2008 @ 1:09 pm

I’m so glad this post has generated such interesting comments, and I appreciate the fact that you are so vehemently opposed to what I wrote, Kathy. I love a woman who speaks her mind, and I think I would love to be in a book club with you! I feel like those who have commented after you have done a great job at defending my position, so I’m not going to belabor it. I will however agree with what Emily M. wrote about us (Kathy and I) having a great deal in common. Both of us feel comfortable with the choices we have made concerning the literature we read. Neither of us want to be judged harshly by women with differing views. Feel free to correct me Kathy, but I suspect that you, like me, have been judged in the past, which is why you were so quick to assume that I was one of those finger pointers. I’m not. I commend you for your choices to avoid the things that you believe are offensive. Just to clarify (and I think my original post does say this) I’m not pointing the finger at my friends. I’m asking that they not point the finger at me. My frustration was about an unwillingness to delve deep and came long before the “questionable literature” issue. Thanks again to everybody for all of your comments.

One last thought. Loyalty to my God is the reason that I study literature–to understand his creations, his world, my brothers and sisters, creativity, and my potential. I don’t believe the literature I choose offends Him, I believe it glorifies Him.
stacey @ tree, root, and twig
October 22nd, 2008 @ 1:10 pm

I am totally with you!

Many moves – and many wards – after joining the church 16 years ago, I have FINALLY found a book club that fits my reading temperament. I feel so profoundly grateful. It seems to be the unwritten rule of this fabulous group of women that we all just put on our big girl pants and treat each other, and the books, with respect. I have never seen anyone’s feelings get hurt, even though the discussions can sometimes get quite heated. I feel absolutely blessed.

Just a thought – do you think online book clubs are a valuable resource for LDS sisters? They aren’t ward specific and thus aren’t subject to some of the social politics that happen in wards. And maybe you can get a better sense from the get-go of the level of interest in delving into characters, themes, etc, as well as sensitivities to language/violence/sex. It may not be quite as personal as sitting in someone’s living room, but I still see that it could be a fulfilling experience.
Beatrice
October 22nd, 2008 @ 1:18 pm

I really enjoyed this post because I have always found the bakeing analogies lacking. Of course you wouldn’t want to eat something that had something gross in it, but I think that with film and literature there is a difference between content and message. Two different movies can both have similar sex scenes in them. One movie may just be for entertainment and the sex scene is just kind of thrown in. However, another movie may have a sex scene to send a different message. I think a good example of this is from the movie “The Lives of Others.” The main character is feeling lonely, isolated, and emotional distant from other people. He sleeps with a prostitute in order to feel connected to other people, but he finds that this encounter is emotionally unfulfilling and he feels more alone than he did before. If someone else was uncomfortable watching a certain movie, I would completely respect that. We all have certain threshholds of what we choose to watch. It is hard because you often don’t know what the message or content will be until you start watching or reading something. Some people would rather just not take the risk. I respect that. But, I gain so much from movies and literature that I feel that it is worth the risk for me.
Melissa
October 22nd, 2008 @ 3:03 pm

Lindsay — I was trying to remember the name of that talk so I could link to it! I especially like this part:

And why is Fitzgerald’s novel about adultery, obsession, alcoholism, and murder taught at a place like BYU? Well, in part, because all those who are crowned with glory and immortality and eternal lives will have, in their own kingdoms, an array of offspring who are, in their own ways, disobedient, annoying, and horrifying. We will have to learn how to deal with an abundance of our own Jay Gatsbys and Sweeney Todds and Pol Pots and Marquises de Sade and Brian David Mitchells. Just as it is presently the work and the glory of our Father in Heaven to bring to pass our immortality and eternal life—in spite of all He knows about us, which is everything—we hope it will someday be our work and our glory to help provide those same blessings for countless souls who are very much unlike ourselves, and many of them will be supremely unlovable. In my experience, the best way to come to know such people—and not merely to know them, but to know them well enough to be able to love them beneath all the layers of their sins and imperfections—is through the instrument of good books.
mormonhermitmom
October 22nd, 2008 @ 4:08 pm

Now if we could only put those who commented in the same book club…

My last ward had a book club and it made me read books that I would never consider. Not because of low standards, simply because the other ladies liked genres I had never touched before. It also allowed me to make some friends, which is innately hard for me.

There have been times when a book was considered “too indecent” by some. They chose not to attend that month, and to my knowledge, no one ever held it against them. Whoever was the next person to host the meeting, brought four books they had either read before, or really wanted to read, and the group voted on which book to select for discussion the next month. It was an unspoken rule not to choose “bodice-rippers”, but the occasional profanity or sexual situation didn’t automatically doom a selection for consideration. We had many in our group with degrees in many different areas such as biology, sociology, history, etc. and we had lively discussions. We may not have been adept at seeing some forms of symbolism, but we were quick to find contrived plots and unimaginative characters.

An excellent post for discussion – thank you.
jendoop
October 22nd, 2008 @ 4:15 pm

that quote just blew my mind
Justine
October 22nd, 2008 @ 4:49 pm

Melissa, that is a wonderful quotation. While wallowing and rolling around in sin and unrighteousness is not helpful or ever suggested, understanding is so important, I think.

This summer has given me a greater understanding and compassion for chronic physical and health issues, and I only wish I could have learned this lesson from reading it rather than going through it. But I know I can learn lessons of pain and suffering and loneliness and depression and other issues that I might not have to go through myself by reading and feeling them through others’ words.
imperfect
October 22nd, 2008 @ 9:52 pm

Thank you Justine and Melissa…
Leisha
October 23rd, 2008 @ 7:50 pm

My favorite point in all the replies:

Description of evil or sin does not make something evil or a sin.

From my own point of view, people who view life in black and white with no shades of grey are spiritually immature.

I don’t do book clubs. I go prepared for a full course meal, others just want dessert. Neither is wrong, but certainly dissapointing for both parties.
MStephens
October 23rd, 2008 @ 8:24 pm

I’m also one of those people who prefers books to be clean. Before I got into a Literature, Writing, and Film major, I was moderately firm on it, but now I MUST have clean books. For me, when I am analyzing a piece of literature or a film, I really OBSESS about it. It permeates my thoughts to a great degree. If it isn’t clean, my thoughts become dark and I lose the Spirit. I notice when it is gone. I don’t feel very strong spiritually. My preference has developed out of spiritual self-preservation.
Lindsay
October 24th, 2008 @ 5:16 am

Melissa – That’s my favorite part too. Made me rethink some of the books I had eliminated or put down due to what I considered were parts less than conducive to the Spirit. I realized after some soul searching that, for the most part (I don’t read gratuitous and overly romanticized books), it was an uncomfortability I had with the topic not that the author’s words chased it away.

I’ve learned to be more of a passive observer while reading when before I tried to step into the character’s shoes. Now, in my mind, I stand off at the side and watch the events as they unfold. Some things still sting and others hurt like hell, but my ability to mourn (in my mind, at least) with those who mourn seems to have increased while I judge far less than I once did.
Cindy
October 24th, 2008 @ 11:28 am

Such a great discussion–I’ve really enjoyed reading this. I had a comment for the people who wondered why they could read an R rated book when they wouldn’t watch an R rated movie. Once my sister recommended a book as being really terrific. I picked up a copy on tape to listen to while I was working on a project. It was a good book–very enjoyable. Until the children in the story were brutally abused. Then it was a miserable book. My sister was so surprised that I was overwhelmed by the abuse part. She said “it wasn’t *that* long.”

I realized that the difference was that when reading a book, I can move more quickly through a given section, or skip it all together. Because I was listening I was (somewhat) at the mercy of the tape. It took as long as it was going to take, which felt like a very long time indeed.

I think principle is even more true with a movie. In a book you might be able to ignore the profanity, skim past the gratuitous sex scene, or skip the violence. In a movie they are profoundly there. In your face. In your ears. Images and sounds that, for me at least, are much more disturbing than the words on a page would be. And they are usually combined with music of some sort, which enhances everything–good or bad. I think there is a huge difference between a book and the movie…
cindy baldwin
October 26th, 2008 @ 12:07 pm

Taking a slightly different angle: A few months ago I started wondering why I was so profoundly in opposition to the violence in some books and movies, and not opposed to the same level of violence in others. I wondered, a little guiltily, if I wasn’t just “splitting hairs” and excusing my own behavior for the stories I liked better.

After thinking about it for several weeks, I decided that the books/movies that did NOT repulse me with their violence (I think the example that came to mind was The Lord of the Rings) were usually books/movies where that violence was a representation of something more. Stories where it enhanced the uplifting effect of the story by showing the polarity between good and evil, the consequences of actions, and so forth. The books/movies that did offend my sensitivities were stories where I felt that the violence was just sensational and gratuitous – as someone wrote, for entertainment value rather than to learn.

I think that the same can easily be said for language and sex in books (and movies, though I certainly have a much lower threshold when it comes to movies). I am a pretty conservative reader myself, but I do value the learning that can come from books leavened with baking soda. I think that the difference is when the sex/language/offensive material is sensational, and when it is educational.

I also think that our own personal life experiences contribute greatly to what we can or cannot read, and that leaving out that fact leads to a lot of wounded feelings and improper judging.