Comments on: Spiritual Horticulture http://segullah.org/daily-special/spiritual-horticulture/ Mormon women blogging about the peculiar and the treasured Thu, 09 Feb 2012 16:08:16 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Michelle http://segullah.org/daily-special/spiritual-horticulture/#comment-20750 Michelle Sat, 20 Oct 2007 04:57:25 +0000 http://segullah.org/guest-post/spiritual-horticulture/#comment-20750 Interesting post I just read today illustrates the risk of putting too much stock in man's reasoning and data. If you know anyone who has been caught up in the DNA and Book of Mormon debate, <a href="http://mormanity.blogspot.com/2007/10/dna-and-book-of-mormon-update-science.html" rel="nofollow">this post</a> might be worth a read. Interesting post I just read today illustrates the risk of putting too much stock in man’s reasoning and data. If you know anyone who has been caught up in the DNA and Book of Mormon debate, this post might be worth a read.

]]> By: Michelle http://segullah.org/daily-special/spiritual-horticulture/#comment-20581 Michelle Thu, 18 Oct 2007 06:55:33 +0000 http://segullah.org/guest-post/spiritual-horticulture/#comment-20581 Indeed, it is. Indeed, it is.

]]> By: mami http://segullah.org/daily-special/spiritual-horticulture/#comment-20570 mami Thu, 18 Oct 2007 03:43:17 +0000 http://segullah.org/guest-post/spiritual-horticulture/#comment-20570 Michelle, I really think we are often on the same page in all of our conversations on the blogs--it's just so hard over the internet sometimes! Michelle,
I really think we are often on the same page in all of our conversations on the blogs–it’s just so hard over the internet sometimes!

]]> By: Michelle http://segullah.org/daily-special/spiritual-horticulture/#comment-20564 Michelle Thu, 18 Oct 2007 03:14:45 +0000 http://segullah.org/guest-post/spiritual-horticulture/#comment-20564 mami, sometimes this medium is limited. I can tell I haven't communicated well enough because I didn't mean to imply that a shelf was like sweeping something under the rug. Again, the whole key is to do the things that protect the roots. You have given examples of ways that you can't quite find reconciliation with both brain and heart, but all the while, you keep the flame of faith alive, you are open to the reality that more information (spiritual or otherwise) could (and assuredly will) increase your understanding; you don't focus so much on those things that they dominate your thinking or your spirit. That is, in my mind, consistent with the spirit of this post. Incidentally, I think you have picked two examples that I suspect are not uncommon issues/questions. We don't have to <i>dismiss</i> evidence. I never meant to suggest that in such an extreme. Again, I think the the key is not to put so much confidence in data or reason so as to threaten or replace faith or choose worldly information over the spiritual. We must always remember that our knowledge, as wonderful as it is and as blessed as we are to know so much, is limited when compared to God's. I think a key part of this whole process is simple humility. If I have understood what you have said, I actually love doing what you talk about. Sometimes, when I go to the temple, for example, I mull over what it might be teaching about the processes of creation (and I think about those things relative to what science teaches at this point). I take intellectual and other thoughts and questions to my spiritual study and worship. I don't make them the FOCUS or stumblingblocks. All in wisdom and order (priority and balance). I think doing this kind of sorting and mulling, all the while letting the Spirit be the main key in seeking understanding and reconciliation, can be a wonderful process if kept in perspective and balance. Could this not be an application of "study it out in your mind"? But again, it's all about how we approach it and what our desires and motives are. Are we willing to accept that we don't know everything and let faith reign? Or do we let what we think we know overshadow faith and choose instead only that which is based in mortal evidence? (Am I being any clearer?) Hm. I used that word reconciliation and wonder if yet another facet of the Atonement is bringing all truth together, reconciling the mind and spirit. He reconciles body and spirit, temporal and spiritual. I think that through Him and as we stay focused on Him, the intellectual and the spiritual can and will also come together. He rends the veil of death and the veil of knowledge. I love, too, the faith in 'someday.' It's ok not to understand everything now. I, too, believe that 'in this life and the next' we can 'build a sensible picture. I think that will only fully be possible when the veil is rent. Again, it will come down to the Atonement's power, I think. mami, sometimes this medium is limited. I can tell I haven’t communicated well enough because I didn’t mean to imply that a shelf was like sweeping something under the rug. Again, the whole key is to do the things that protect the roots. You have given examples of ways that you can’t quite find reconciliation with both brain and heart, but all the while, you keep the flame of faith alive, you are open to the reality that more information (spiritual or otherwise) could (and assuredly will) increase your understanding; you don’t focus so much on those things that they dominate your thinking or your spirit. That is, in my mind, consistent with the spirit of this post.

Incidentally, I think you have picked two examples that I suspect are not uncommon issues/questions. We don’t have to dismiss evidence. I never meant to suggest that in such an extreme. Again, I think the the key is not to put so much confidence in data or reason so as to threaten or replace faith or choose worldly information over the spiritual. We must always remember that our knowledge, as wonderful as it is and as blessed as we are to know so much, is limited when compared to God’s. I think a key part of this whole process is simple humility.

If I have understood what you have said, I actually love doing what you talk about. Sometimes, when I go to the temple, for example, I mull over what it might be teaching about the processes of creation (and I think about those things relative to what science teaches at this point). I take intellectual and other thoughts and questions to my spiritual study and worship. I don’t make them the FOCUS or stumblingblocks. All in wisdom and order (priority and balance). I think doing this kind of sorting and mulling, all the while letting the Spirit be the main key in seeking understanding and reconciliation, can be a wonderful process if kept in perspective and balance. Could this not be an application of “study it out in your mind”? But again, it’s all about how we approach it and what our desires and motives are. Are we willing to accept that we don’t know everything and let faith reign? Or do we let what we think we know overshadow faith and choose instead only that which is based in mortal evidence? (Am I being any clearer?)

Hm. I used that word reconciliation and wonder if yet another facet of the Atonement is bringing all truth together, reconciling the mind and spirit. He reconciles body and spirit, temporal and spiritual. I think that through Him and as we stay focused on Him, the intellectual and the spiritual can and will also come together. He rends the veil of death and the veil of knowledge.

I love, too, the faith in ‘someday.’ It’s ok not to understand everything now. I, too, believe that ‘in this life and the next’ we can ‘build a sensible picture. I think that will only fully be possible when the veil is rent. Again, it will come down to the Atonement’s power, I think.

]]> By: mami http://segullah.org/daily-special/spiritual-horticulture/#comment-20557 mami Thu, 18 Oct 2007 01:58:15 +0000 http://segullah.org/guest-post/spiritual-horticulture/#comment-20557 Angie and Michelle, I understand what you are saying. However, for me it works just the opposite sometimes. For example I believe in evolution. When I look at the scientific evidence, I can't not believe in evolution (as much as I understand it). However, I believe that God created man and that we are his children. It is problematic for me that if God used evolution to create man (which appears to be true) then that would mean somewhere long ago someone's parents weren't children of God, because they weren't really human as we are now. I believe in evolution, but also choose to continue to believe that God created us in his own image. There is kind of a spiritual shelf for me. At the same time I don't think the evolution idea is strangling my spiritual branches. It's one of those things I just think I don't understand spiritually, but maybe I will someday. It is true too that some of my lack of understanding on how to reconcile the two ideas could be both spiritual and intellectual in nature. On the other hand, I believe Joseph Smith was commanded to practice polygamy, but in my brain it doesn't make any sense. I put this idea on my intellectual shelf. The idea that God asked Joseph to practice it is not strangling my brain cells. I hope someday to understand it with my brain, meager as it is. It has occurred to me that this maybe a lack of spiritual understanding too. All of theses ideas could go on the spiritual shelf sometimes, and onto the intellectual shelf at other times, depending on context. When I talk about shelves, I don't want to confuse that with pushing these ideas aside to ignore or disregard, hiding them in the back of the closet or sweeping them away like dust under a rug. I put them on a shelf for my best and noblest ideas where they are in full view when I am in the idea room. Sometimes I take them off the shelf and try to put ideas together like pieces of the giant jigsaw puzzle that this life is. I try to make them fit in different places and in different ways, believing that in this life and the next I will build a sensible picture. It seems to me that dismissing scientific, historical or other empirical evidence because it is irreconcilable with one’s faith, only proves one’s faith to be ostensible. It perhaps maybe just as dangerous to disregard intellectual reasoning, as it is to disregard spiritual evidences. Faith then becomes the game of dogmatic rhetoric. Although not comprehensible by reason alone, I truly believe God works within reason. And as you said Michelle, if it makes sense spiritually, it should also make sense intellectually (thoughts coming to your mind). All things should eventually make sense both logically and spiritually (the key word being eventually). Angie and Michelle,
I understand what you are saying. However, for me it works just the opposite sometimes. For example I believe in evolution. When I look at the scientific evidence, I can’t not believe in evolution (as much as I understand it). However, I believe that God created man and that we are his children. It is problematic for me that if God used evolution to create man (which appears to be true) then that would mean somewhere long ago someone’s parents weren’t children of God, because they weren’t really human as we are now. I believe in evolution, but also choose to continue to believe that God created us in his own image. There is kind of a spiritual shelf for me. At the same time I don’t think the evolution idea is strangling my spiritual branches. It’s one of those things I just think I don’t understand spiritually, but maybe I will someday. It is true too that some of my lack of understanding on how to reconcile the two ideas could be both spiritual and intellectual in nature.
On the other hand, I believe Joseph Smith was commanded to practice polygamy, but in my brain it doesn’t make any sense. I put this idea on my intellectual shelf. The idea that God asked Joseph to practice it is not strangling my brain cells. I hope someday to understand it with my brain, meager as it is. It has occurred to me that this maybe a lack of spiritual understanding too.
All of theses ideas could go on the spiritual shelf sometimes, and onto the intellectual shelf at other times, depending on context.
When I talk about shelves, I don’t want to confuse that with pushing these ideas aside to ignore or disregard, hiding them in the back of the closet or sweeping them away like dust under a rug. I put them on a shelf for my best and noblest ideas where they are in full view when I am in the idea room. Sometimes I take them off the shelf and try to put ideas together like pieces of the giant jigsaw puzzle that this life is. I try to make them fit in different places and in different ways, believing that in this life and the next I will build a sensible picture.
It seems to me that dismissing scientific, historical or other empirical evidence because it is irreconcilable with one’s faith, only proves one’s faith to be ostensible. It perhaps maybe just as dangerous to disregard intellectual reasoning, as it is to disregard spiritual evidences. Faith then becomes the game of dogmatic rhetoric.
Although not comprehensible by reason alone, I truly believe God works within reason. And as you said Michelle, if it makes sense spiritually, it should also make sense intellectually (thoughts coming to your mind). All things should eventually make sense both logically and spiritually (the key word being eventually).

]]> By: Angie http://segullah.org/daily-special/spiritual-horticulture/#comment-20536 Angie Wed, 17 Oct 2007 20:03:40 +0000 http://segullah.org/guest-post/spiritual-horticulture/#comment-20536 Michelle, I like your explanation: Taking that example to underscore my point from the post, if we were to start looking at scientific information and doubting God’s existence because somehow we trust some current data more than faith and the Spirit, then I think that is the time to take action to protect the roots, be it to shelf an idea or to cast it out altogether. It makes me think of the early Church's angst over Copernicus and Galileo. It seems funny to us now that people felt Christianity could be threatened by the ideas that Earth is round, but we have our own modern day versions of the same thing (say evolution as one example). For me it is possible to put questions on a "faith shelf" and trust that the pieces will come together in a way I can understand eventually, but I think if I didn't have the capacity to do that, I would far rather give up sudying astronomy for a time than to loose all the blessings of the gospel. Roots and branches indeed! Michelle, I like your explanation:

Taking that example to underscore my point from the post, if we were to start looking at scientific information and doubting God’s existence because somehow we trust some current data more than faith and the Spirit, then I think that is the time to take action to protect the roots, be it to shelf an idea or to cast it out altogether.

It makes me think of the early Church’s angst over Copernicus and Galileo. It seems funny to us now that people felt Christianity could be threatened by the ideas that Earth is round, but we have our own modern day versions of the same thing (say evolution as one example). For me it is possible to put questions on a “faith shelf” and trust that the pieces will come together in a way I can understand eventually, but I think if I didn’t have the capacity to do that, I would far rather give up sudying astronomy for a time than to loose all the blessings of the gospel. Roots and branches indeed!

]]> By: Michelle http://segullah.org/daily-special/spiritual-horticulture/#comment-20524 Michelle Wed, 17 Oct 2007 18:36:00 +0000 http://segullah.org/guest-post/spiritual-horticulture/#comment-20524 Dave, Karen, once again, I feel grateful if anything that has been meaningful to me (I write in part to record these kinds of things) has been worthwhile for someone else. Thank you for your comment. Justine, very well said. My only concern is that you are saying that you are doing too much talking? Yikes. What does that mean about me? :) I love hearing what you have to say. We can glorify God in whatever endeavors we pursue. All things are spiritual to Him and can be to us. Let us know if you ever find Elder Holland's talk. :) Dave, Karen, once again, I feel grateful if anything that has been meaningful to me (I write in part to record these kinds of things) has been worthwhile for someone else. Thank you for your comment.

Justine, very well said. My only concern is that you are saying that you are doing too much talking? Yikes. What does that mean about me? :) I love hearing what you have to say. We can glorify God in whatever endeavors we pursue. All things are spiritual to Him and can be to us.

Let us know if you ever find Elder Holland’s talk. :)

]]> By: Justine http://segullah.org/daily-special/spiritual-horticulture/#comment-20522 Justine Wed, 17 Oct 2007 18:01:25 +0000 http://segullah.org/guest-post/spiritual-horticulture/#comment-20522 I've been looking furiously for a copy of a talk given by Elder Holland at BYU back in the late 80s. It really changed a lot for me. Sadly, I haven't found it. He could put this much more eloquently than I. The thrust of his speech lay on the foundation that while there might not be "spiritual mathematics" or "spiritual physics", there can be mathematics <b>with</b> the Spirit, or physics, or science, etc. There can be any course of study accompanied by the Spirit for the intent to enrich and uplift the soul and the world. I think we all probably spend a lot of our time doing things that could likely be considered as fluff when measured against the yardstick of ecclesiastical importance. But it is how we endeavor in those activities that can be measured spiritually. I could be a lotion salesman, and either use my skill and talent to bring the spirit into my life and bless the world or I could use my skill and talent to make everyone's skin creamy smooth. It's all in the undertaking, I think. too much talking from me... I’ve been looking furiously for a copy of a talk given by Elder Holland at BYU back in the late 80s. It really changed a lot for me. Sadly, I haven’t found it. He could put this much more eloquently than I.

The thrust of his speech lay on the foundation that while there might not be “spiritual mathematics” or “spiritual physics”, there can be mathematics with the Spirit, or physics, or science, etc. There can be any course of study accompanied by the Spirit for the intent to enrich and uplift the soul and the world.

I think we all probably spend a lot of our time doing things that could likely be considered as fluff when measured against the yardstick of ecclesiastical importance. But it is how we endeavor in those activities that can be measured spiritually.

I could be a lotion salesman, and either use my skill and talent to bring the spirit into my life and bless the world or I could use my skill and talent to make everyone’s skin creamy smooth. It’s all in the undertaking, I think.

too much talking from me…

]]> By: dave http://segullah.org/daily-special/spiritual-horticulture/#comment-20520 dave Wed, 17 Oct 2007 17:36:15 +0000 http://segullah.org/guest-post/spiritual-horticulture/#comment-20520 Thank you so much for such a wonderful post. It was strengthening to me. Does your family live in the Canyon View Stake? I loved the conference with (then)Elder Eyring a few weeks ago. Thank you so much for such a wonderful post. It was strengthening to me.
Does your family live in the Canyon View Stake? I loved the conference with (then)Elder Eyring a few weeks ago.

]]> By: mami http://segullah.org/daily-special/spiritual-horticulture/#comment-20514 mami Wed, 17 Oct 2007 15:55:56 +0000 http://segullah.org/guest-post/spiritual-horticulture/#comment-20514 Thanks for your thoughts Michelle. Thanks for your thoughts Michelle.

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