The Fear of God

Posted by Angela | July 22, 2010 | 54 Comments

It’s been a while since I’ve given the Old Testament much attention. Since I toiled for years in the Primary, I haven’t really studied the O.T. since I was in my early twenties. And when I was in my early twenties, I was easily distracted. [Disclaimer: I am not disparaging those of you in your early twenties, since I'm sincerely confident you're all much more serious and thoughtful than I was. Or am.] But now, as an almost-middle-aged Webelos leader and regular Gospel Doctrine attendee, I’ve had an opportunity to spend some time with the B.C. crowd, and the experience has been an interesting one. To say the least.

Is it just me, or do you find the Old Testament alternately horrifying and hilarious too?

Although there are serious spiritual lessons to be gleaned from the Old Testament—I’m not saying there aren’t—I’ve been shocked and surprised by my Gospel Doctrine lesson almost every week. For example, I was surprised by the story about the female judge of Israel, Deborah, which I didn’t know, and the way the story ends—with another woman named Jael driving a tent stake through the head of Canaan’s military leader—was a teensy bit shocking.

But what I shouldn’t be surprised by is the way God is portrayed in the Old Testament. Even without serious study, I know many of the Old Testament stories about a vengeful God: floods, plagues, entire populations slaughtered. After all, these stories are taught in Primary, albeit with the emphasis on the rainbow rather than on the flood. But I can’t help it. Week after week, I come away from Gospel Doctrine feeling a little off-kilter after listening to other class members try and justify why the God we love and worship condones and even encourages wiping out entire populations, including innocent children. (When talking about Sodom, one man in my GD class raised his hand and said, “Even the children in Sodom were too sinful to be saved,” which, 1. I’m not sure how he can know that for certain, at least unless the flux capacitor in fact has been invented and he spent some one on one time with the irredeemably wicked 4-year-old Sodomites, and 2. Doesn’t that contradict our doctrine? Which we should be emphasizing? In Gospel Doctrine? Helpfully, nobody said anything in response, myself included, mainly because I’ve been trying not to be “that person” in Gospel Doctrine. I’m thinking maybe I should have in this case, though. Serving in Primary is certainly more straightforward, isn’t it?)

At any rate, I’ve decided that one of the reasons I find Old Testament study a little uncomfortable is that its portrayal of God seems alien to me. I’m not very afraid of God. I never have been. My conception of God is of a Father who loves me, a Being who will put up with quite a bit, in fact, just as long as I’m trying and willing to repent. In fact, my conception of God is of a Father who loves all his children, even when we AREN’T trying and willing to repent, because he’s God. He’s our Father. He sees the beginning from the end, and nothing I do can surprise or even “disappoint” Him, because my past and my future are continually before Him, and he knows me as an eternal soul.

Much like my dynamic in my relationship with my own parents, I don’t want to offend God, but not because I’m afraid He’ll punish me. Because I love Him and know that if I’m on His team, I’ll be happier and will have the opportunity to progress. I think most of us will agree that this sort of relationship with God is a healthy one—after all, the Bible does say that perfect love casteth out all fear—but sometimes I wonder if I ought to be a little more afraid. I have friends who are more motivated by the thought of falling out of favor with God than I am, and these friends are often better at obedience than me: they read their scriptures more regularly, keep their food storage rotated, never fail in holding Family Home Evening. I would do well to follow their example and be more exacting in keeping the commandments.

But, the truth is, I don’t want to be afraid of God. Fear of God seems to interfere with my ability to worship him. But as a believing Mormon, I have to acknowledge that the events of the Old Testament did, in fact, happen (even if the way they’re presented have been skewed by time, translation, and cultural interpretation) and that we’re studying them for a reason. And maybe one of those reasons is that we ought to be afraid. At least a little.

What have you gleaned from your study of the Old Testament? What are your feelings about approaching God with fear and trembling? And am I going to be struck by lightning?

Comments

54 Responses to “The Fear of God”

Tasha
July 22nd, 2010 @ 10:43 am

Thanks for posting this, and including a picture from Michelangelo! He is one of my favorite artists.

I too struggle with the Old Testament, though I am in my early twenties, and I will admit that I am easily distracted. I love the Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants because they are simple and get right down to the doctrine. I don’t enjoy wading through pages of “begats” and people cutting each other’s heads off. And sometimes that worries me, because we should love all the scriptures, right?

I believe more in the character of God in the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants, a God who is merciful and forgiving and compassionate. When I read those books, I can feel his earnest love for us. On every page He seems to be begging us, “Please, please keep these commandments. They will keep you safe and make you happy and lead you back home to me. Please make the right choices so you can come home.”

Of course I believe the Bible to be the word of God, and therefore that the strange events of the Old Testament really happened. And I’m sure the Lord had some reason for them. But when it comes to the nature of God, I’ll stick with modern revelation and scriptures that have been translated correctly, for they describe the God I’ve come to know as I’ve cried unto Him for help on my mortal journey. To me, He has always been incredibly kind. How grateful I am for that!
Stephanie
July 22nd, 2010 @ 10:51 am

I re-read the story of Jonah a few years ago, probably for the tenth time. Somehow in my previous readings I had missed what an obnoxious punk Jonah was, and how hilariously God (it seemed to me) messed with him.
If you’re going to be struck by lightning, I probably will too.
I’m now very happily serving in primary where, you’re right, we never have to worry about the more theologically challenging aspects of the scriptures. Everything is simple, joyful, and happy. I hope I’m in there for the next 20 years.
Angela
July 22nd, 2010 @ 11:03 am

Tasha, I prefer sticking with modern interpretations too, and am so grateful for my relationship with a kind and loving God.

And Stephanie, some of God’s interactions with his children—even his prophets—in the O.T. really are hilarious. I do love how the characters in the O.T. are allowed to be their flawed and very human selves, too.
Amira
July 22nd, 2010 @ 11:12 am

One of the things I love about the OT is that it shows that culture influences our interpretation of God (or maybe it’s the other way around- God’s interaction with us is influenced by our culture and expectations). So even though I don’t really relate to the ancient Israelites expectations of God and their fear of him, I can relate to their expectation that God is an active part of their lives.

I especially care about those cultural and historical differences because there are so many of those differences in the world today and it’s important to see that we all look at God differently, whether it’s 2010 or 1020 BC. But it all can be legitimate.
Jill Shelley
July 22nd, 2010 @ 11:24 am

I use to sort of have this fear of God. I think I picked up some of that from our neighbor friends across the street from us while growing up. They attended Catholic school and for punishment they had to go in a room by themselves and just sit there looking at a picture of “the devil.” They talked about that a lot. But I have since learned very differently in my adult life. Especially 13 years ago when my husband died. I saw how Heavenly Father sent so many wonderful blessings to me and my family during that horrible time. Incredible blessings. Sweet happenings. Kind people would seem to appear out of nowhere. And while I would try to sleep each night with 2 of my sons on the floor beside me for the first 3 months after their father’s death, I would hear a voice in my head as I would wake up repeatedly that would say, “It’s okay. Go back to sleep.” and I did. My 2 younger boys would cry out in their sleep repeatedly and I would be right there to say to them, “It’s okay. Go back to sleep.” and they did. These scenarios would repeat themselves over and over again. I was being comforted, and in turn, I was comforting them.

But this is the big lesson I learned. We parent like God parents us. After all, we are created in His image. When our children are hurting, what do we do? We do extra little things for them to help comfort and cheer them up, right? I learned that Heavenly Father does the same for us, but on even bigger higher level. And he sends people to love us and care for us in our time of need. He knows just what we need. He lets us struggle to learn and grow, but when we really need it, He is there. He LOVES us.
Kerri
July 22nd, 2010 @ 11:46 am

My view on the nature of God is shifting slightly lately. I’m not sure where it will land, but I have always felt like you: I’ve noticed those who feared God a little more were maybe a little more stalwart in their basic obedience. Maybe they see things a little more in black and white than I do? I don’t know.

Shades of gray do complicate things, don’t they?

I think that while we try to understand Heavenly Father in order to be more like him, there are things about God and His ways that we will never understand until we see Him face to face.
Deja
July 22nd, 2010 @ 11:53 am

As a gospel doctrine teacher, I can’t really hide from those verses that portray a wrathful God (although sometimes the lessons themselves skip over them …). It was what I feared when I got called. But it’s been interesting for me to turn the question back to the class: what do we make of this? And although this may not be the case in every ward (I’m in Cambridge, MA.), I’ve been met with some astonishingly beautiful and wise answers. A few that have helped me, from my own study and fleshed out by the comments of the class:

The cultural thing that Amira talked about really sunk in when I read some commentary about warfare during that time: God’s approach was by no means unusual, and maybe even more merciful than we give credit for. Those were brutal times. That didn’t answer all of my questions, but it helped me by illustrating how little I knew, which settled me. (Finding out how little I know usually settles me.)

The other thing is something my dad says, who’s also a Gospel Doctrine teacher, and that’s that the Old Testament is about narrative, it’s about story. In a way, each book has its role: D&C=history, BoM=restored doctrine, NT=life of Christ, etc. And to think of the Old Testament as being about narrative makes sense to me. Those stories are important, very very important, but they’re important as stories, if that makes sense. It’s almost like their power lies in plot, in the way they speak to something foundational about what it means to be humans who need God. And wow, when I can stop worrying about matching God up to my idea of Him, they are such incredible stories. I have grown to love that book.
Ana
July 22nd, 2010 @ 12:27 pm

I think we should avoid keeping the commandments out of fear that we’re going to be fried–there are better reasons. But I’m also beginning to notice that not everyone really gives a hoot about what the Lord says or wants. I have a feeling that the wrath and vengeance so prevalent in the OT is mainly directed at people who are so hardened that nothing else is going to make an impression. I DO think there are innocents, like children who get caught in the crossfire sometimes (I believe He will make compensation for situations like this) but it is important to remember that the Lord is not always loving and cuddly–depending on our spiritual orientation. I realized this one day when I was reading His responses to the Pharisees. He said some rather biting, stinging things to them on occasion.
Ana
July 22nd, 2010 @ 12:32 pm

One more thought–I guess if we put the Lord’s actions in context of parenthood (but on a bigger scale) we might make more sense of it. When my children are misbehaving, the loving, patient gentle mother gets replaced by a somewhat sharper version of myself. As for the children in Sodom and Gommorah, maybe dying an early, quick death is preferred to being taught and absorbing wickedness for an entire lifetime?
Angela
July 22nd, 2010 @ 12:40 pm

Jill, thank you so much for sharing your story. And Amira and Deja, it’s been very helpful for me, too, to be mindful of the cultural lenses that are used–by those who originally wrote these stories down, those who translated them, and those who interpret them today. And Deja, I love looking at OT stories as stories, too. There are some really thrilling (even entertaining) narratives.

Ana, the funny thing is that I’m also a little bugged when people present God (or Jesus) as “always loving and cuddly.” Studying the New Testament, for example, has given me a much broader understanding of Jesus’ personality: his quick mind, his impatience with sin (hypocrisy and pride, in particular), his willingness to sharply reprove even his disciples. There’s a great deal of love there, too, surely. But the Jesus presented in the New Testament wasn’t the type you’d necessarily turn to for a pat on the head. And I like that.

As Kerri said, we’re incapable of truly comprehending the totality of God the Father or his Son in this lifetime.
Angie f
July 22nd, 2010 @ 1:03 pm

I too am a Gospel Doctrine teacher these days. It has been interesting to me to see the same pride cycle in the the lives of the children of Israel as is manifest in the Book of Mormon–never noticed it before I had to teach it. As I compare the way that God is presented in each book of scripture, I find that I see less difference between the OT seemingly vengeful God and the perhaps more merciful God of the NT or BoM. What is changing is my perception.

I think that what we may see as vengeful destruction in the OT may very well be our same loving Heavenly Father halting the progression of wickedness that certain peoples were laying out for themselves. We tend to see things in a very mortal frame of reference where destruction is a pretty final and drastic punishment for the dastardliest of deeds. But what if it isn’t vengeful at all? What if God sees the everlasting condemnation that people may be bringing down on themselves and, in His eternal wisdom knows that their mortal destruction is actually the only way to keep them from more full scale eternal destruction. What if God, in warning that consequences to certain actions will be exacted on the heads of subsequent generations is really just trying to teach us that certain very serious sins have farther reaching natural consequences than we can fathom on our own? The more I learn about the brutal times of the OT, the more I find myself thinking that the God of the OT is the “tough love” father that His children of those times desperately needed.

And because we are alive in this time and culture of democracy and humanitarian notions of justice over vengeance, it can be difficult to even understand how we are to answer the commandment to “work out our salvation with fear and trembling”–and those are D&C and BoM admonitions (D&C 10:56, Mormon 9:27). Perhaps the OT is essential for us to see the need to figure it out?
andrew parker
July 22nd, 2010 @ 1:47 pm

Your december 2009 post about “the soul felt its worth” absolutely brought me to tears.

–

I find the OT, just like you said, both hilarious and horrifying… its so full of life! It’s so full of the little details. Like when shadrach, meshach, and abednego refuse to bow down to the bails and it says “and the kings face changed” (with anger).

There’s a hymn I like that goes:
“Jesus speaks and pleads his blood. He disarms the wrath of God.”

The NT God is of course no different than the seemingly perfectionist OT God. Like the story of that mother who knew her airplane was going down, placed her child in the seat and covered it over with her own body, and then in the crash she died while her child lived… that’s how I think of Jesus. He completely endured the (legitimate) wrath of God so we wouldn’t have to.

I love your blog! Keep it up
Melanie
July 22nd, 2010 @ 1:47 pm

I’ve always had a hard time with the OT because of the ways in which women are treated. I’ve just had to tell myself that a lot of what bothers me is cultural and reassure myself by remembering personal affirmations from the Spirit that God loves and values and protects his daughters.

The discussion of a punishing vs. an all-accepting God reminded me of an article about unconditional vs. divine love by Elder Nelson. It’s in Feb. 2003 Ensign.
Stephanie2
July 22nd, 2010 @ 1:47 pm

I am also a Webelos leader approaching middle age.

I recently became very interested in the Old Testament. I have never read the whole thing all the way through. I know all the major stories, but there are a lot of smaller stories I’ve never heard. My husband and I started reading the OT together the last time that we were studying it in SS (2006). Then we received some busy callings and had a couple more kids, so we got distracted. We are now back to reading and are somewhere in Judges.

I have been so intrigued that I went back to the beginning and am reading it myself. I feel like I am learning lots of things:

1. Like Amira, I understand that some things were just cultural – not from God. And yet God allowed the people to continue in righteousness even with practices that I would consider “sinful”. He allows prophets to lead even with weaknesses in the culture. That helps me to understand a lot of things.

2. There are so many patterns. I keep making lists and charts of patterns, and I still feel like I am missing half of the message. I started reading “The Holy Secret” last night, and it points out how many “characters” (for lack of a better word) in the scriptures are types of Christ.

3. God demands obedience. But it is not out of selfishness. He wants us to be like Him.

4. I think I understand why God wipes out wicked societies. I think it is because the wicked hurt too many innocent people, particularly children. When I think of the wickedness in our society (child abuse, murder, sexual abuse, rape, etc.), I sometimes pray for Christ to come and usher in the millenial reign to put an end to it. Every time I hear some horrible story on the news about a child who was raped and tortured, I feel that the Lord must feel 10 times as sick and sad as I do. If His options are 1) allow the people to continue in their agency to hurt innocent children, or 2) instantly wipe out the entire population (including children) to put an end to the torture and abuse, I can kind of understand where He is coming from.

Anyways, I am really enjoying my personal study of the OT and am looking forward to learning more.
Stephanie2
July 22nd, 2010 @ 1:48 pm

Oh, and I am constantly amazed by similarities in the OT and BofM and today. The patterns are fun to find.
Paul
July 22nd, 2010 @ 1:48 pm

Wow, really nice post. Thanks.

For me it’s helpful to remember that the OT is a specific history of a specific people, not of all people. The story is how God deals with His covenant people to whom he made specific promises and who made promises to Him.

In that context, it’s easier to understand some of the “zapping” that goes on as consequences for honoring or not honoring the covenant (or facilitating the covenant, for that matter).

Secondly, if we really believe that life existed before the earth and after, then the details of how we come into this world and leave it may be less important — not less important to the specific person, but in the grand scheme of things. And again, if the OT is a record of a covenant people (not a specific person or two), then the macro treatment is more understandable.

Finally, I remember on a reading of the OT years ago how much “love God and love thy neighbor” there is in The Law. It’s not all jots and tittles, though it is that, too. At its base, The Law is still the two great commandments.

Thanks for the cool post and the reflection.
Eliana Osborn
July 22nd, 2010 @ 1:55 pm

I’ve been a little torn this year reading the illustrated OT with my 4 year old. I find myself summarizing and making things a bit happier/less creepy for his benefit. Good thing he’s not reading yet.
Which has all led to me thinking a lot about what I precisely believe, literal Bible and what not. More than I bargained for but probably good for me.
eljee
July 22nd, 2010 @ 2:41 pm

I love the Old Testament! I think it’s fascinating, and usually I prefer reading it to other books of scripture.

I think you have to look at the Old Testament with a global perspective to appreciate it. I can’t focus too much on what it would be like to be an individual person living then and how fair or unfair things would have been. But globally, I think that the overall theme of the Old Testament is justice. And I think that theme was a necessary precursor to the coming of the Savior with mercy. We could not appreciate mercy without experiencing the effects of unrelenting justice, and I think our Savior’s role and mission means so much more when we have the Old Testament way coming before.

Christ and the New Covenant by Elder Jeffrey R. Holland is a fascinating book that digs into this. It talks a lot about the role of the OT in bridging the NT and Book of Mormon.

I do love the humanity in the Old Testament. People are shown in all their imperfections, even prophets. I love that there are so many stories about women.
Carol
July 22nd, 2010 @ 2:51 pm

Although the Old Testament contains some graphic, R-rated stories, I don’t know of a book of scripture that shows the Lord’s love more us more powerfully than Isaiah. David’s psalms are masterpieces that radiate God’s love.

When I remember that the children of Israel were living the law of Moses and often reverted to horrible forms of “worship” including child rape, infanticide, and orgies, I can better understand why the Lord was so harsh with them. Even with his stern reproaches, He continually reminded His children that He was waiting for them to return to Him.

I really love the Lord’s powerful love that is described in Isaiah 49: “But Zion said, The Lord hath forsaken me, and my Lord hath forgotten me. Can a awoman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee. Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands; thy walls are continually before me.”

I find great comfort in the words, “Be still, and know that I am God.”
Michelle
July 22nd, 2010 @ 3:51 pm

But what if it isn’t vengeful at all?

This is sort of the way I see it. For me, the OT teaches me that my understanding of God really is limited. I think it’s evidence that we measure things differently than He does. Death and physical suffering are about the worst things we can fathom, but I think He sees a bigger picture.

I think it takes some getting used to, but I keep being amazed by the powerful stories of God’s involvement, power, and love found in the OT. I also love studying about the ancient tabernacle and seeing parallels to our temple worship. I think there is more of such parallels than what may appear at first blush.
Kathleen Dalton-Woodbury
July 22nd, 2010 @ 3:57 pm

I love the quote Carol gave, because it makes me think of when I was in junior high and we used to write phone numbers on our hands. And then I think about what HE has in the palms of HIS hands.

My thoughts regarding the destruction of innocents among the wicked is along the lines of what Stephanie2 said. I submit that when you consider that physical death is not as terrible to God as it is to us, and that spiritual death is so much worse in HIS perspective, removing innocents from a wicked culture by bringing them home to HIM makes a little more sense.

Also, I received an insight into God’s perspective when I used to have to take my cats to the vet (I’d take them together because there was a small discount that way). They would cry and cry and it almost sounded as if they were saying things like “What did I do?” and “Why me?” and “Please forgive me!” and “I promise, whatever it was, I won’t do it again!” and so on. And I couldn’t tell them that what I was doing was to help them live long lives and stay strong and healthy. One lived to be 18 years old and the other lived to be 16, and I never did figure out how to explain to them that those terrible visits to the vet were for their good.
Cath
July 22nd, 2010 @ 4:03 pm

I’ve come to love the Old Testament over the years. Mostly for the stunning types of Christ found in both men and women of ancient days. But I agree, after finishing a careful reading of the Old Testament last summer, I couldn’t believe the number of times I scratched my head over the details of several narratives. As mentioned by others, writers as well as interpreters play a huge role in how we piece the stories together. This year, I’ve been studying Camille Fronk’s book, Women of the Old Testament, along with our GD class. Her research within the geographical and cultural context was hugely helpful. But I’m with you. The God I know is an unchanging God whose love is unconditional.

Thank you for this thought: “nothing I do can surprise or even ‘disappoint’ Him, because my past and my future are continually before Him, and he knows me as an eternal soul.”
Stephanie2
July 22nd, 2010 @ 5:30 pm

I also like to use the CES manual (online) as I study the OT. Sometimes it answers little questions I have about things I don’t understand.
Michelle
July 22nd, 2010 @ 5:44 pm

That manual opened up the the way I view the temple. FWIW. I had always loved it, but after studying with that manual, I REALLY loved it.
Angela
July 22nd, 2010 @ 5:48 pm

Everyone’s love for the OT and wise insights are increasing my ability to appreciate and understand it. Thanks for sharing. And I agree there’s some really beautiful stuff to be found in its pages (amidst all the confusing/horrifying/hilarious stuff). Isaiah 49 is one of my favorites, too, Carol.

I agree that for God (and probably for us, once we have an eternal perspective), death isn’t really as horrible a proposition as we think it is. I also agree that it’s probably better for some souls to be taken from this earth rather than be corrupted by an irredeemably evil society. I can (kinda) get my head around explanations like this for the mass slaughter in the OT. But what I can’t agree with is the idea that God slaughtered all these people as punishments for their evil deeds. Not only do people get away with all sorts of evildoing in the modern world without being smitten, but I’ve got to believe that most people three thousand years ago were essentially a lot like we are today: amalgams of good and bad motivations and behaviors stemming from a complicated blend of genetic and family and cultural experiences. People were people then, too. Some better than others. Even in Sodom. Perhaps it was simply easier for the authors of the OT to believe that every single person within the city walls was irredeemably evil. Helped them sleep at night, maybe? Or it simply fit within their cultural framework of the way God behaved?

Anyway, thanks for all the insights. Keep em coming!

Oh, and Old Testament aside, I’d still like to hear more about the “fear of God” question. What are some of the benefits and drawbacks that come when we approach God with fear and trembling?
Claudia
July 22nd, 2010 @ 6:28 pm

The Old Testament is a much misunderstood work. There are many reasons for this, some of which you stated. One of the problems with the Sunday School lessons is that they don’t really present the Old Testament and let it speak for itself. The lessons are not about the OT at all. They are about certain principles and stories that illustrate those principles that happen to be in the OT. In the context of its time and language, fear God means to respect God. That means to reverence God or stand in awe of him. This is appropriate even in relationship to a loving Father.

This morning my husband and I were talking about David and his nephew Joab. Joab was also his right hand man, the chief captain of David’s army. He slew more than one righteous man, yet David did not punish him for his crimes. He left that for Solomon to do. The way this deserved punishment is meted out sounds really terrible to our ears. We decided it is because the ancients had no prisons. They had no walls where they could punish murderers with the electric chair or a lethal injection. In our time these things have been removed from our every day lives. Our wars are fought in far distant places. The fighting is not done only by boots on the ground but by people who control deadly weapons from thousands of miles away. Do they kill even children? Yes they do. Why aren’t we shocked and outraged.

On the other hand God does know the end and he knew what the odds of the four year olds in Sodom growing into righteous adults were.

I have been studying the Psalms for a while now and I am constantly amazed at how loving, kind, merciful and compassionate their authors perceived God to be. They saw God the same way as we see him as a loving father who created everything for us.
Michelle
July 22nd, 2010 @ 6:51 pm

But what I can’t agree with is the idea that God slaughtered all these people as punishments for their evil deeds.

I dunno. I think we see patterns of mass death in the BoM that come as a result of wickedness, too. I think that there is a message in there somewhere that at some point, people don’t just become a combination of bad and good but can actually reach a point where they snuff out the light in their souls, where they are ripened in iniquity and/or for destruction as is said in scripture. I think this is not a commentary on God, but on man and the problem of evil.
Amy
July 22nd, 2010 @ 7:24 pm

2 quick thoughts:

1) To the Lord, death is not the worst thing that can happen to a person, young or old.

2) I’ve been noticing and appreciating direct story parallels between the O.T., and the B. of M., like never before. Want a beautiful pick-me-up? Read the dedicatory prayer which King Solomon offered at the dedication of the temple, and the Lord’s response. God will not be mocked, but He will extend mercy when humbly desired.
Jen
July 22nd, 2010 @ 8:10 pm

This may be way under-thought, but in my life I have noticed that God is what I need Him to be, when I need Him to be it.

It works for me.
jendoop
July 22nd, 2010 @ 8:37 pm

Great discussion! I think Angela is on to something. We have so much of the evil around us now that OT societies had when they were destroyed by God. So we look around at our culture and environment and judge the OT by our culture.

Remember when President Hinckley said that there is little difference between our world now and Sodom and Gomorrah (paraphrase)? So I think a question that vexes our subconscious is why did those people get wrath and destruction but our world continues on and those sinning are famous and rich and seemingly happy? It is a juxtaposition that is interesting to consider and makes me wonder how much longer God will stay his hand.
Tay
July 22nd, 2010 @ 9:41 pm

Approaching God with fear and trembling…

That’s a very complex question for me. Perhaps instead of fear we ought to approach Him with awe and respect and love. So I think a certain amount of healthy fear is acceptable in this mortal life. When we fear, it’s because of something we don’t know. And since we cannot comprehend God, there is an understandable fear of Him. And the fear allows us to accept we lack control and adds to our humility levels to balance out the pride levels. Interesting.

Maybe God doesn’t much care if we obey out of fear or love so long as we do it humbly and charitably. Since we’re all different, maybe He is just able to relate to everybody in different ways and He knows what we need to be taught in order to get through to us. Though hopefully we aren’t so thick that He needs to send down fireballs to destroy a whole city just to get our attention.
annie
July 22nd, 2010 @ 9:44 pm

the old testament works best for me as a foil for the new testament – it serves to emphasize/highlight the impact/importance of the Savior and the higher law that we learn of in the new testament.
i also agree with deja (or deja’s father) that the ot is about narrative – esp. the first few books.
annie
July 22nd, 2010 @ 10:04 pm

and in the same vein, the fear in the ot is in contrast to the hope of the nt – the resurrection and atonement, the Savior.
(“For God hath not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love, and of a sound mind”
2 Timothy 1:7)
Erica
July 22nd, 2010 @ 10:49 pm

Great post! I just finished putting together a gospel doctrine lesson on Elijah (who knew that he annihilated all the prophets of Baal?!?), and it got me thinking. . .

As Mormons, our perception of God the Father really is quite unique in the world of Christianity. I think Martin Luther was right in feeling unsettled about the concept of a distant, unbending God who demands that WE pay–very literally–for our own sins. But I also think that some modern religions have swung too far to the other, saved-by-grace/Jesus-is-my-best-friend extreme. And where do Mormons fall? Somewhere in the middle, I guess. I like the parent analogy; God loves us unconditionally, but sometimes he has to show some “tough love.” It’s for our own good. In return, we love Him with all our hearts, granting Him the respect He deserves as a glorious heavenly father.

I also want to point out that the God of the Old Testament is–in most cases–Jehovah, or Christ. The Jehovah of the Old Testament was obviously seen through the lens of a specific culture (which is worlds and ages removed from our own!). We don’t even have to debate that point; the record of Christ Himself in the New Testament offers a completely different portrait of the very same person.
Michelle
July 22nd, 2010 @ 11:47 pm

the record of Christ Himself in the New Testament offers a completely different portrait of the very same person.

I guess I see a lot more similarities than we often talk about, though. When you look in the core of the stories, the same Christ is there…the same rescuing, leading, loving, saving God is there in the OT.

And the NT has troubling questions all its own, including the core difficulty of how sometimes it’s the evil ones who live and the righteous ones who die…Christ and His apostles all suffered a great deal at the hands of wicked (and/or deceived) people.

God allows hard things on both sides of the coin, as it were.
Paradox
July 23rd, 2010 @ 5:16 am

God doesn’t destroy entire populations until they have become too disgusting to be allowed to continue living. If we look at the Jaredite record, we get some of the holes filled in for us on what this actually means.

We’re not talking about people that forget to pay their tithing. We’re talking about people where all they do is kill each other, force their captives to eat each other, violate women and murder children. Civilizations like those have become an abomination and must be destroyed. They cannot be saved because they are past feeling.

The fact of the matter is, some people can’t be saved from themselves. At that point, the best thing that could happen to them is for them to die. You can’t commit a lifetime of sin if you don’t have a whole lifetime.

Our Savior knows better how to help His children than we do because He paid the price for their sins. He knows them better than we do, and we can’t forget that.
Lucy
July 23rd, 2010 @ 5:45 am

I always struggle with the stories of the OT. I was in a class once and they were talking about Lot’s wife and how she shouldn’t have turned around … blahblah. I mentioned that perhaps she had children back there. Did Lot guilt her into it? Did she have a sister there…parents…?? There are many things I do not understand why they took place and perhaps I don’t have to until I can get to a place where I can see the big picture. I keep remembering that the Bible was written by many different people and maybe a lot of it is their outlook on life then. Who knows.
Yet another J
July 23rd, 2010 @ 7:13 am

Has anyone considered how many hands/voices have touched and altered the Old Testament. I’m sure that many plain & precious things were taken from the text over the course of time. Thus, there is the depiction of an angry wrathful God vice the loving Father who desires to teach/bless and see His own children grow.
Denny
July 23rd, 2010 @ 10:42 am

Nice post, Ang. I agree with the sentiments of Eljee (#18) and a couple others who believe that the vengeful theme of the Old Testatment is “a necessary precursor to the coming of the Savior with mercy.”

And Joseph Smith once made some fascinating comments about the nature of God. He said, “Our Heavenly Father is more liberal in His views, and boundless in His mercies and blessings, than we are ready to believe or receive; and, at the same time, is more terrible to the workers of iniquity, more awful in the executions of His punishments, and more ready to detect every false way, than we are apt to suppose Him to be.” So although I generally feel comfortable in my perception of God as an enormously loving parent, there’s a part of me that’s always thinking “Don’t push your luck.”
JennR
July 23rd, 2010 @ 11:25 am

What I’ve really gotten out of Gospel Doctrine this year is how wonderful the Book of Mormon is in contrast to the Bible. Especially as a writer, all the translation errors and awkwardness in the Bible are so obvious and so confusing. I do love studying the Bible as well, but I’ve just really noticed this time around that in the Book of Mormon stories you don’t have the “What the heck?!” feeling all the time. The Book of Mormon is really a blessing, and helps me understand the Bible better.
Dovie
July 23rd, 2010 @ 11:52 am

I serve in nursery right now and love it. I don’t have the opportunity to attend gospel doctrine class. So I am a little bit rusty in my Fear of God.

I remember and experience I had once regarding the Old Testament and the destruction found there. Particularly the story of Noah and the flood. Stories like that one really bothered me. Lots of the Old Testament bothered me. I was listening to a song by a LDS composer. I misunderstood the actual narrative of the author intended. Instead my mind was free to explore other ideas. There are two voices and perspectives expressed. Since I was not familiar with the story line behind the song (I was with the story of Noah but not what the composers interpretation). I didn’t realize who the two voices were. Instead of two voices on the Ark. In my mind it was a imaginary dialog between someone on the Ark and someone off the Ark trapped in the rain. The person trapped in the society being destroyed has a flash of insight inspiration that this is all part of a greater plan that his and his peoples redemption might be still possible because of this very destruction rather than prohibited by it. He becomes grateful for his impending physical doom it because he sees the hand of God at work. He sees that even this act of destruction is the act of a loving God. Seeking to redeem even him.

Moses 1:39 For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

In essence the society had become so off course so wicked that if it had been left to continue on that course that God’s plan for his children would have been frustrated. Not just for that group of people but all of his children. It became clear to me that every act of our Father in Heaven ultimately is for the redemption of any that would be redeemed. Blessings and cursing and sometimes even punishment and destruction.

I wish I could find the reference to back this up but wasn’t part of what Christ did in the three days in the Spirit world was minster to those that had been righteous and organize them to minister to those in spirit prison. To redeem any that would be redeemed. Including those that had been destroyed in the flood.

I continue to find amazing insights and understanding in scripture. The Old Testament is a fascinating and sometimes frustrating puzzle box that if I persist great treasures of insight are revealed. A couple of days ago I came across this amazing little gem of understanding.

http://journal.segullah.org/spring-2008/why-these-women-in-jesus’-genealogy/

There was a time in my life that I felt more Fear of God. When I was younger and not living the gospel the way that I should. I felt fear but I also felt the Love of God. I had many experiences where I often felt His loving hand extended to me in the midst of my sinful choices. Always seeking to for my redemption if only I would choose to be redeemed.
Sue
July 23rd, 2010 @ 1:14 pm

I don’t fear God, but I do fear disappointing Him. And I fear the consequences of that.

=)
sac
July 23rd, 2010 @ 10:51 pm

Doesn’t it make the hairs on the back of your neck stand up a little when you forget to do an over-the-shoulder-check when you are driving, and nearly go into the same lane as the person in your blind spot, and you are only saved from a car accident by a honking horn? In that case, you remember to be afraid of not following the instructions of whoever it was who taught you how to drive, and that person didn’t even know everything there is to know in the Universe.

Which is my way of saying that I am not afraid of God, per se, but I am darn afraid of what might happen to me if I choose to ignore His warnings, in whatever form. He loves me like no other person I’ve ever known, but God Himself cannot stop certain consequences from happening, even for His children whom He loves. In some cases, perhaps many cases, the best He can do is warn us, and we would be foolhardy indeed to suppose that His love and omnipotence can save us from bad things when He has already warned us to get out of their way.
kik
July 24th, 2010 @ 1:28 am

I kinda always thought that when the Lord, Jesus Christ is not on the earth, He really tries to get our attention and call us to repentance. As a warning. And it might seem harsh, but it’s because He really cares. I think the D&C Lord is sorta harsh at times too.

I thought: when Christ was actually on the earth, he was with mankind and just loved/loves us so much, he found it harder to be harsh.
Michelle
July 24th, 2010 @ 2:11 am

I can’t get this discussion out of my head…read some with it in mind, actually, while waiting in the temple today. One thought that I had as I read is that the destruction that is talked about is about whole communities/civilizations…not just individuals. And we have stories about the Lord sparing individuals and people — either helping them get out of those communities before the destruction happens and/or saying that He won’t impose utter destruction until a people is ‘fully ripe.’ But reading through scriptures under ‘destruction’ and ‘ripe’ helped me see that this is not an isolated occurrence…the God we worship is not afraid to use what to us seems drastic to us (e.g., read 3 Ne 9 — He says He is the one who destroyed the cities of the wicked) to destroy a people if they continually reject Him. (He’s also not always going to stay His hand for righteous people, either, e.g., the women and children burned before Alma and Amulek).

I mean, even the Proclamation includes warnings about calamaties etc. It’s all a bit sobering, and yet I feel there is much there to help us see that this isn’t just random and that the only thing to fear is giving place for evil (individually and as a society) and rejecting God and His plan.
Angela
July 24th, 2010 @ 9:03 am

Denny, I love that quote by Joseph Smith. Thanks.

Sac, great analogy. I definitely fear the consequences of disobeying God, but I suppose I see those consequences as a part of the natural order of the universe, not as a result of God’s anger, if that makes sense. It’s more like a “don’t touch that hot stove” kind of Godly parenting, rather than a “you’d better not give me one of those looks or I’ll spank you” kind of parenting.

And Michelle, you’re right: disastrous consequences are warned of in the proclamation, and we all know about the warnings of the evil and calamities that will befall the world before the Second Coming. But righteous people, like the women and children you mentioned in the story of Alma and Amulek, have suffered (and continue to suffer) as a consequence of other people’s evil deeds all the time. Of course, this happens all over the world, every day, right now. The difference, to me, is that it’s not God who is inflicting the pain and suffering, but his fallen children.

Of course, this gets into the whole “Problem of Evil” (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil), an issue we’ve been dancing around in this discussion, and one that philosophers and religious people have been trying to figure out for centuries. I guess I simply do well to remember the scripture Dovie quoted, Moses 1:39. “For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.”
traci
July 24th, 2010 @ 6:58 pm

I read through the Bible in entirity every year for years. Each day a part of the Old Testament, New Testament and then parts also of the old, Psalms and Proverbs. This gives me an all-round more understanding of God, God the Father.

I have had to come to terms with the fact that just because it is uncomfortable and hard does not make it true. And God is loving in the Old, notice how it takes generations of time before He punishes.

Do I understand it all – no, i am not supposed to. I figure i’ll finish my Bible study in Glory.
DeniMarie
July 24th, 2010 @ 9:24 pm

I think there are many things in the Old Testament that are perspective issues: we are looking at the world through the changing perspective of the ancient Israelites. They wrote the texts, after all.

It is interesting because these people were living a preparatory law–not because they were bad, terrible, and unrighteous, but just because they weren’t ready to understand the law in context.

My own small children might describe me as a punitive dictator at times and their own recollections may focus on the times I punished them “terribly” versus the times I showered them with praise for a job well done. However these young children will also describe the “lesser law” I am having them live:

“Don’t hit your brother/sister” is true, but it is preparing them to live a law that says “treat others with respect and kindness” or even “treat others the way the Savior would treat them.”

They may also “fear” me and my punishments, but that isn’t because they don’t love me or trust me as well.

All of this, however, is notoriously difficult to understand so far removed from the context and also context of the translation–which is five hundred years old itself!

I believe this serves to strengthen my testimony of the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon was needed to clarify the “plain and precious” truths of our relationship to God in a way that the Bible could not.

It is comforting to me that the Lord has provided the BOM as a tool for me not only in understanding the gospel in general, but the Bible specifically.
Lucy
July 24th, 2010 @ 10:07 pm

I’m teaching TFOT tomorow in Relief Society and we are using Elder Christofferson’s talk about the blessings of the scriptures. I’m really going to try to incorporate the blessings of ALL scripture, including the OT, even though I’ve always felt the way you described in your post. Sometimes, I sit through church and want to look around and say, “Do we really believe this?”

That’s just an embarrassing expose of my own ignorance, but I’ve enjoyed reading the responses and how the Spirit has helped me understand its role as holy writ. I’ve always been in the “Use it for the stories” camp, but then, when I hear something fascinatingly bizarre, like the tent stake through someone’s head (didn’t know that either) I wonder, “What’s that for?”

I hope to have as good a discussion in class tomorrow as the thoughtful people have given here. Because I do firmly believe that the scriptures, all of them, help us know God and how to become like Him.
Gina
July 25th, 2010 @ 11:45 am

A sweet, blogging friend of mine sent me your post today. She knows how I’ve been struggling with the OT.

I’m a convert to the LDS church and am teaching the OT to the 14-15 year olds. I was very excited about it. My plan was to read not only the assigned gospel lessons, but to read the OT in its entirety and blog about it ( http://fitby41-james1-5.blogspot.com/ ). I found myself, instead, struggling to keep my testimony.

I’m trying to come to terms with the OT. I’ve come to the point where I have to say I can’t take it literly. I don’t know, yet, where the truth starts and the absurdity ends. That’s okay, I guess. The scriptures are there for a reason, and I’m supposed to learn something from them.

I really like your post and have read all of the comments (and I sincerely feel what a service it was for your commentors to take the time to write their heart-felt thoughts).

So many people and cultures in relatively recent history use ancient scripture’s examples as excuses to hurt others — to supress women, to control the masses, justify genocide, and to terrorize. They say their god wants them to do it. It’s not God I fear, it’s those misguided zealots.
Angela
July 25th, 2010 @ 1:03 pm

Gina, thanks for sharing. Isn’t it interesting how our testimonies are challenged and remade, over and over again? I remember having a similar experience with the D&C in my early twenties (reading it through, having some real questions, etc.) and coming through the experience both shaken and strengthened.

There are certain stories in the OT that I simply don’t take literally. I think that’s okay. And I agree with you that it’s misguided zealots who use the OT (or their belief in God in general) to oppress and terrorize that are the real problem. We as LDS are not immune from those same impulses and erroneous interpretations. So I think it’s healthy–even necessary–to ask ourselves, “Do I really believe THAT? Is this how God really wants me to behave or think or feel?” The freedom to do that is one of the wonderful blessings of being a part of a living church that allows for both institutional and personal revelation.
Susan
July 26th, 2010 @ 8:27 am

I love the OT and think it stands out for its literary qualities. Robert Alter’s recent translation and commentary is just marvelous. In college I took a class that read some of Aviva Zornberg’s commentaries — I think some of the Jewish commentaries are fascinating and thought-provoking because this is their sole Bible. They’re worth a read.
Mary B
July 26th, 2010 @ 8:59 am

There are a lot of good comments here. I think it’s instructive to read the Old Testament with a basic understanding of the hierarchy of psychological motivation. In a nutshell, people are generally motivated to do the right thing by either discomfort or pain, fear of punishment, hope for a reward, or love and dedication. If you look at the development of a child, you will find the child going through all of those stages at various times in various aspects of their lives. If you look at your own life and the various things you do, you may find each of those motivators involved in various undertakings. Hopefully we get to a point that we are living honestly and fully in all aspects of our lives out of love and commitment, but few of us are there yet. Almost all of us will need more time than this life to get to that point.

Watch carefully for all of those motivations in the lives of the people portrayed as you read through the Old Testament. They are all there in the actions of the mortals whose stories we encounter there. The fear one seems most prevalent but the others are all there too.

We all read God through the lenses of our own motivations. Different aspects of our relationship with him will seem most prominent depending on the kind of motivation that is most prominent in our lives or the society around us. The same is true of the writers who wrote in the warring, hard-scrabble, largely illiterate, trying-to-do-the-best-they-can societies of ancient Mesopotamia. Short lifespans and not infrequent first-hand acquaintance with blood and death, both of which were ubiquitous in that era, make the progress through all the stages of psychological motivation more difficult. So, it stands to reason that people then would read punishment and fear more often into God’s dealings than they do now. It’s not that God was more vengeful then, it’s that their culture and psychological thinking patterns caused them to see his actions and work more through that lens. Fewer of them were able to make the transition through all the stages. The ones who did are remarkable in the Old Testament. And it makes the wonder of Jesus’ teachings even more notable in their huge leap forward in that regard.

Do I fear God? I must say I do. It’s not so much that I fear what he will do if I disobey. I figure that whatever that is, it will be a learning experience. But his majesty, omniscience and power make me very, very sober. I cannot take him or his words lightly.
Giggles
July 26th, 2010 @ 12:15 pm

“1. I’m not sure how he can know that for certain, at least unless the flux capacitor in fact has been invented”

I’ve heard several things about the Old Testament from people that make me wonder the exact same thing. It’s interesting how much of ourselves we can project onto the unspoken parts of the Old Testament.

I’ve also learned that much of the way the Old Testament reads has to do with how it has been translated. When looking at the original text they had several ways to express the Hebrew words. The English words they chose have influenced how we read it today. Understanding the original words greatly broadens the stories.

But there are several parts of the Old Testament I just have to laugh at. My husband and I are reading the entire Old Testament together this year. And almost daily there’s a part that we just have to roll our eyes or giggle about.