“Your Mom Goes to College!”

Posted by Angela | May 21, 2009 | 87 Comments

A few Sundays ago, a group of us was brainstorming ways we could help the sisters in the ward live more providently in light of the current economic crisis.

“Teach them to can!” a person offered.

“Create a Relief Society recipe book!” another said.

“Tell them to stop applying for secret credit cards and then hiding the statements from their husbands!” one cried passionately.

All good ideas, yes (in particular the last).

Finally, I raised my hand. “Encourage women who haven’t finished their degrees to go back to school!” I said with enthusiasm.

Although a couple of people nodded in consideration of the idea, the general feeling that pervaded the silence in the room was one of skepticism. I imagined the responses floating around in people’s heads: “It’s expensive.” “It’s time away from the home.” “It’s so difficult to do with young children.” “That won’t solve anything short-term.” “What if going back to school fills these women with crazy ideas and they run screaming from the house never to return?” (Okay, so I seriously doubt anybody in the room was thinking that one, but it’s representative of what somebody, somewhere thinks on the subject, I’m sure.) Although there were a couple of people nodding approvingly, apparently none of them felt as strongly as I did regarding my ingenious solution and the conversation quickly turned to having a “budget night” as an Enrichment activity.

(We know how to balance our checkbooks, sisters. Am I right? It’s not the know-how that’s the problem. It’s the discipline. Anywhoo . . .)

To me, though, the idea of women—mothers—going back to school, even when they have young kids, is more than a nice idea, or something to get you “using your brain,” or a way to stave of the crazies (although it served all three of those purposes for me). It’s provident. To me, “provident living” means taking the long view, preparing yourself now for a future that’s years away, gearing up for emergencies that could (possibly, but not definitely) arrive. Having a college degree, no matter when you get it, is a way to help ensure your family’s financial solvency. Just as there are people who bear their testimonies about food storage—”I’m so glad my family sacrificed and prepared so we could have our year’s worth. It got us through when we faced illness/layoffs/unexpected challenges”—I’m sure another testimony could be borne by countless women (we just might not hear it as often): “I’m so glad my family sacrificed and prepared so I could get my degree. It enabled me to provide for my family when we faced illness/layoffs/unexpected challenges.”

Just as with food storage, a college degree doesn’t have to be obtained all at once. When I went back for my Master’s, I had two (and then three) little kids. I took one class a semester. At the beginning the road seemed incredibly long. But when it was over, I couldn’t believe how quickly the time went. Now that I teach college writing courses, every semester I have women in my classes who are doing the same thing: taking one class at a time. Eventually, if you keep at it, you will get that degree.

I also realize that for many of us one of the biggest obstacles to going back to school is money. It can be expensive, to be sure—just like obtaining a year’s worth of food. But state colleges and church-run schools are more reasonably priced and can offer excellent educations. We can plan and save and sacrifice. Student loans are also an option for some. I understand that many people aren’t comfortable taking out student loans and I respect that very much. But I also know that the relatively small student loan I took out to pay for my graduate study is well on its way to being paid back, and will be paid back many times over by the employment opportunities (flexible, fulfilling employment opportunities) that opened up for me once I graduated.

Going back to school after a long time away from the classroom can be intimidating, too. What if all those years of diapers and Barney have overtaken the parts of our brains that analyze Kafka or memorize the periodic table of elements? To that I say “Bah!” and add to it “Humbug!” Our mom brains are even BETTER suited to college than they were when we were twenty. I swear it’s true. Why wouldn’t they be? We’ve had years of experience. We can juggle a dozen tasks at a time. We’ve read books and had responsibilities and solved problems that our nubile, barely-post-adolescent brains couldn’t even fathom. And besides, I’ve had enough experience teaching women-over-a-certain-age that I can tell you this: taken as a whole, they are the most conscientious, engaged, and enthusiastic students in my classroom. They *get it.* And they want to be there. Grown women, in my experience, are a joy to teach.

If the main reason you’re reluctant to go back to school is because you’re afraid, consider the following words by President Hinckley regarding fear and making decisions:

“The problem with most of us is that we are afraid. We want to do the right thing, but we are troubled by fears and the world drifts about us. ‘Be not afraid, only believe.’ I commend to you these wonderful words of the Lord as you think of your responsibilities and opportunities.”

I understand that individual circumstances might make it impossible for some women to go back to school, even if they want to. But if you can make it work? Consider it. Although a part of me chafes when people say, “Women should get their educations just in case their husbands die,” (because, of course, women should get educations because women should be educated) . . . it doesn’t change the truthfulness of the original statement. As women and mothers, it isn’t frivolous to be prepared for unforeseen crises. Just because school might sound fun doesn’t mean it’s self-indulgent. Sometimes things that are practical are also (gasp!) fulfilling.

And even if you never end up “using” the piece of paper you’re awarded at the end of it all—even if you never end up earning one red cent—we all know that knowledge is one of the only things we take with us in the end. And what’s more provident than that?

p.s.–Extra credit for the first one of you to tell me where this post’s title comes from.

Comments

87 Responses to ““Your Mom Goes to College!””

Sarah in Georgia
May 21st, 2009 @ 9:23 am

Yes! I am a huge believer in education! The Relief Society Proclamation identifies us as women who “love life and learning”; school is part of that.

My mother-in-law went back to school when her youngest was in school. My husband says it made a world of difference in his parents’ relationship. Every year or two, he asks me if I want to go back to school (I’m already one degree up on him) because he is such a strong believer in education.
ESO
May 21st, 2009 @ 9:37 am

I am quite amazed at how Mormon women are SO obedient when it comes to food storage and wearing only one earring (SO tired of that illustration of obedience) but I honestly cannot remember the last General Conference meeting, YW or RS sessions doubly so, in which we were NOT told to get all the education we could.

I am waiting for the revolution in which women leave GC and go straight to their computers and sign up for classes! Forget removing your earring, write a thesis and read a textbook! Get your cosmetology license or learn how to do your own plumbing. Sign up for that LAST science credit you need to complete your BA and haul your kids down to graduation to watch Mommy walk in cap and gown.

I started my Masters when my oldest was 3 months old. Did it all part time and in the evenings while she slept. I finished a month before my second was born. It was FANTASTIC quality me time and I have used the Masters now that I need to support my family.

We are SO blessed to live in an internet era where we can genuinely learn from home and in a society that has such support for adult education. I think it is a shame to let it all slide by.
jendoop
May 21st, 2009 @ 9:49 am

Yes!!! I go to college !

I’m currently enrolled in BYU’s BGS program. It will probably take me the entire 8 years allowed to complete my bachelors degree, but it will be completed. Not getting my degree is my biggest regret in life. When I enrolled in the program I felt I had life under control and could add a few distance-learning classes (AKA internet and through the mail). Then my husband was unemployed, we moved cross country, I unexpectedly got pregnant, which was followed up by a mystery illness.

So I needed your post today. Sometimes when there are so many things going on I want to toss my education to the side to make my life easier. But something keeps whispering that it should be a priority in my life – right up there on the ‘sacred’ shelf with my family.

The money isn’t there, really. When it comes time to register for another class I talk to my husband and we negotiate. The last time I registered for a class we didn’t know where the money would come from and then I got a weird kind of inheritance from my grandparents (although they are still living). It was exactly the amount I needed. It’s just too much like an Ensign example isn’t it?

The ways getting my education has blessed my life (and I haven’t even graduated, yet) is hard to calculate, but here are just a few: the example to my children of dedicated study, they see me sacrificing TV or friend time to do it; Showing those around me, RS, neighborhood, extended family, that I value education; incorporating the things I learn into my life and sharing them on my blog; the example of getting my degree in the midst of the chaos of life is encouraging to others who want to do the same; it is a way of telling myself, while surrounded by dirty diapers and folding laundry, that my personal desires and goals are important; I am learning to be organized and self-disciplined.

It is too sad that our culture doesn’t see women’s education as important as men’s. Recently my 14 year old daughter had to choose classes for her 9th grade year; either a college track or vo-tech track. All but one of her friends chose the vo-tech track. Not that vo-tech is bad, but the girls don’t have any expectations of education beyond high-school.
Tay
May 21st, 2009 @ 10:06 am

Napoleon Dynamite – Tina, you fat lard, come get your food!

I’m the only one of 5 girls that married into my husband’s family that has a college degree. I guess that I just didn’t realize the kind of feat it is to finish school until now. It’s a lot of work, time, and money, but it’s SO worth it. I feel so great about myself having finished such a daunting task. However, I’m not sure I want a Master’s. That is way intimidating to me.
FoxyJ
May 21st, 2009 @ 10:11 am

Totally agree. The question of which kind of education and where/when to get it is so personal, but there are so many benefits to it also. I do think there are great benefits to the sort of liberal-arts humanities education that will broaden your mind, but not your pocketbook; but we also shouldn’t disparage vocational education also. I know the trend lately is that every person should get a 4-year degree, but last year when I taught at a 2-year school I realized that for many people a technical degree or certificate is not a bad thing. Sometimes I hear people disparage things like CNA or cosmetology certification, but if it is something that will increase your talents, allow for possible contributions to your family’s income, and bless your life, then so be it. My sister is an RN and only has an AA, but has better employment opportunities than I do with my Masters in Spanish.

I am currently in a PhD program but decided to drop out for a lot of reasons. I have a master’s and I love the fact that I can teach part-time and still earn plenty of money for my time. Last year I taught an evening class twice a week and it was the perfect thing for me and for my family. But, I’m still having mixed feelings because I’ve discovered that I’m not a big fan of teaching and not very good at it. So now I’m trying to figure out where to go from here. I might eventually get a degree in library science–that’s what my husband has and he loves it. There are several schools out there that offer the degree completely online, so if you love books and education you might want to consider getting a libary degree
mmiles
May 21st, 2009 @ 10:20 am

Do we really need yet another cookbook of recipes we’ll never use? And canning is too expensive and takes too much time!

I go to school. For fun. I like writing papers. And someday I will be better able to contribute to my family’s income–for things like retirement, missions, college, all those humanitarian projects I can’t do right now but want to. I look forward to contribute a little to the world in a different way than I can in this phase of my life.

It’s much more economical to spend time and money on school than canning.

It shows my kids that education is important, that you never quit learning. I can share things with my kids that I learned, so they learn them too.

It prevents dementia, improves an aging memory, and keeps me up on school-necessary technology.

It’s my hobby.

And it is so true that years of experience, time to read books that 22-year-olds haven’t heard of, and lack of a college-coed vibrant social life give me a huge edge in every class. Too bad for everyone else when they grade on a curve!
Plain Jame
May 21st, 2009 @ 10:27 am

I watched Napoleon Dynamite twice on Sunday – once with the cast commentary, and once with the directors commentary… It was classic – they even said “where did that come from: your mom goes to college?” The guy that played Pedro was like “HUH!?”
I have been pecking away at my degree for 13 years now.. It’s close but terribly too far away. I took classes that I would enjoy and not count towards my general eds. It doesn’t help that I’m weeks away from delivering my 3rd child, and I still dont know what I want to be when I grow up…
Excellent post – I laughed at the imagery of what the women must be thinking. (crickets chirping might have worked too).
Shellirae
May 21st, 2009 @ 10:35 am

I am a 33 year old stay at home mother of four. PTA, young womens, library volunteer. I also design and create wedding cakes to help supplement my families income. But the most worthwhile decision I ever made was NOT to quit college when I started having kids. I have 2 classes left, and next april my husband and kids are going to watch me walk in cap and gown to recieve my bachelors degree. I LOVE school. I love writing papers, reading textbooks, thinking of something other than sesame street. I also have taken 30 hours of classes to qualify as a suzuki violin teacher.
Education makes my life more vivid and vibrant. I am able to addd so much more to my childrens lives.
I do laugh when the 19 year old sitting next to me in class says “It must be nice to only have one class and SOO much time to do homework.”
Honey- just wait 15 years.
Ashlee
May 21st, 2009 @ 10:37 am

There is no doubt that the two most used tools in my current life as a mother and wife are my mind and my heart. We spend much time trying to cultivate the hearts of peace and love and faith that we desire… but a cultivated mind is equally necessary.

Education teaches us more than our subject of study. It teaches us to use our brains in different ways, how to analyze, how to research, how to solve problems, how to see things in new ways. Like faith, knowledge is power.

We need both. At home, at work, in love and in family.
Annette
May 21st, 2009 @ 10:37 am

I wish more women understood the value of an education–and how likely it is that at SOME point they’ll have to use it to help support their family.

I plan to get a master’s as some point, but I’m darned glad I have my BA.
Miller
May 21st, 2009 @ 10:49 am

Amen. Now how to inspire and motivate the sisters who aren’t reading and posting here. Ahem.

I’m getting my MFA and getting a small stipend, so when I tell folks I get paid to go to school, they are shocked. In my inner-city ward, many women did not finish high school and I’m constantly encouraging every sister to think about ways she can educate herself. Our employment specialist is amazing with encouraging further knowledge for all our struggling members.

Do more of what Angela said in her post. Bring it up at church and talk about it in practical terms. How do you do it, what are the first steps, what are the local resources … etc. So that’s my goal now to talk in real terms to sisters about ways to further their education.
traci
May 21st, 2009 @ 10:51 am

This is a hard topic for me. To know you made the right decision for the circumstances – but yearn for when that would be over.

I started back to school when i met my husband. I was writing my end of the class paper, the weekend of the wedding!I went to school online and feel it is the best learning experience i have had. There are teacher comments on each and every lesson – i can be going to class at 5am if my schedule demands it, no worry of traveling in bad weather, my health is an issue I it can be done lying in bed and quite frankly, it costs a lot less.
ok i liked it alot!
with cut employment hours etc i had to quit. i knew it was the right thing to do – but i miss it sooooo.
So! i have been studying on my own, and when i can go back – i will either be able to test out of some subjects or just be able to handle them differently.

i am glad i know how to can – but if you are in dire straits like i was when i learned to do it – the cost is astronomical. it is a good skill, no doubt about it, but you have to have something to start with.
even tho i am doing food storage now – when there was already nothing – there was nothing to store. Practicality must breed practicality.
if canning etc classes can be taught where ones know the skill, but don’t need to have the upfront money – then the learning will bear fruit (pardon the pun) later.
chanson
May 21st, 2009 @ 11:10 am

“That won’t solve anything short-term.”

That’s absolutely the wrong attitude. It’s time to start thinking about the long term as much as possible.

This solution (mom going back to school) isn’t necessarily the right solution for every family, but it is the right solution for a lot of families, and it can be a very good example of realistic long-term planning.

That said, I wouldn’t totally dismiss canning — it can be done economically, especially if you have someone in your ward who can offer good advice. And putting some heads together and doing some research on cooking healthy meals for less (time and money) would benefit SAHMs and WOTHMs and dads alike…
Giggles
May 21st, 2009 @ 11:13 am

AMEN!!

And I could point to numerous studies about the countless advantages a mom with an education gives her children. Even if you never need it for those “emergencies” children are blessed in so many ways simply because the mom has a degree. I know this because I’m currently working on my third degree in education.

It still raises my hair a bit on end when I think of the kind old brother in the church who told me a PhD was a lot of education to have for being a mom.

Go to school! Learn! Even if it isn’t for a formal degree. The scriptures tell us we get to take all we learned in this life with us into the next. Why not take as much as you can?
mmiles
May 21st, 2009 @ 11:33 am

I hope I did not offend anyone about canning. I really gain a sense of satisfaction from looking at my rows of bottled peaches. It has its own reward, but economics is not one of them.
jen
May 21st, 2009 @ 11:33 am

I also add my resounding AMEN!!

I got my bachelors degree right after high school but would LOVE to start on a masters now. I’ve actually done some checking into a few options and met with some counselors here and there.

You’ve inspired me to keep with it until I find something I would love to learn about.

thanks
Justine
May 21st, 2009 @ 11:38 am

Read “The Working Poor” and you will run yourself right back to finish that degree! (But it sounds like we’re all pretty much agreeing with you, Angela!)

I wonder if someone will feel comfortable enough here to disagree.

And I absolutely love to can food. It really is very easy, very inexpensive from year to year (the first year is really the only expensive year, with all the start-up), and I do it with my sisters and we have a blast every fall. There’s nothing like eating my own canned peaches in the dead of winter and knowing that I did it! And now that we’ve got our own peach trees, it’s even cheaper.
Emily M.
May 21st, 2009 @ 11:55 am

So I’m not going to disagree, necessarily, because I love school. So, so much.

But with all my love of school, I’m not going back to get my Master’s anytime soon. I don’t know exactly what I want to study, and I have little kids, and it’s not my season right now. I think that in our desire for education, which is indeed a provident thing to be aware of, we need to do it providently. It might not be one woman’s time or season to go back to school, because of family concerns or health concerns or whatever, and I think that’s okay. It’s one thing to hold back from completing a degree because you’re afraid of spending money or the sacrifice it will require, and another thing to pray about it and recognize that the Spirit is telling you it’s not a provident option at this time.

And I also think there’s a lot of value to recognizing that you can still learn and develop skills without a college degree. Not that degrees aren’t essential in the workplace. But I am related to brilliant, remarkable women, who continue to learn and be interested in the world, who do not have four-year degrees.

I’m all about education. Believe me, I am. But I think it’s important in this (as in all things) to refrain from judging another woman’s decision not to return to school, just as you would hope that they’d support you in your decision to return.
BYU Women's Services
May 21st, 2009 @ 12:02 pm

AGREED! Love the analogy to food storage.
Non-traditional Student Handbook: Resources at BYU
Angela
May 21st, 2009 @ 12:08 pm

I had to run out and do some Mom-stuff this morning, so it was fun to come back and see all your great comments.

I wanted to agree with a few commenters who made the point that a 4 year liberal arts degree might not be the right choice for every woman. (Although I’m a big fan of a liberal arts education–even if it doesn’t “seem” practical to major in art history, there are all sorts of benefits, intellectual, spiritual, and even financial, that come from having a degree, period.) But I cheer on any choice to further skills and education, from cosmetology to massage therapy to paralegal training and so on.

It’s also an individual choice when “enough is enough.” Everybody doesn’t need a PhD. But I will say that some kind of post-high school training and/or education is becoming more and more necessary in our world. Although my English degree and Master’s in creative writing wouldn’t provide my family with as much money as my husband’s MBA does, it gives me a great deal of peace to know that if I found myself in a position of needing to be the sole of support my children, I could find a full time job where we’d have enough money to meet our needs.

Oh, and now I’ll say something mildly provocative: I’ve noticed that it seems (*seems!*) that some of the wives of men who are more well-off financially are less likely to pursue or complete their education. Perhaps it’s the feeling of safety in their husband’s income makes them think their own contribution will never be needed? I sense more of an urgency among women who don’t have that cushion of extra money every month. But, of course, women whose husbands make a comfortable living could also suffer divorce or disability or death of a spouse–but when the prospect of ever going back to work seems remote (and the idea of it something they don’t want to have to contemplate?), then getting an education is sometimes put on the back burner.

And, of course, there are so very many blessings that come from broadening one’s education. Enhanced financial security is just one of many. And life-long learning, no matter how that learning is obtained, is so important. This is why our church leaders talk about education again and again: and they’re not just saying it to young, college age women. They’re saying it to us.

And mmiles, I don’t think you offended anybody about canning. Although I’m sure it can be very cost effective, I do pretty well at the Harmon’s case lot sale.

And Tay, you’re awarded extra credit! Napolean Dynamite it is.
Paula
May 21st, 2009 @ 12:42 pm

Kip to Deb when Napoleon doesn’t buy the caboodle-full of key chains.

My husband has life insurance which would pay off the house if he were to pass away or become disabled or “dismembered” (quite the visual, huh?). I fully expect he’ll stick around, body parts intact for many years, and nobody gets married thinking that they’ll be single a few years down the road. But it happens. Having a back-up career plan is as important as life insurance, I’d think.
jks
May 21st, 2009 @ 12:49 pm

I think we should encourage women to go to school. Sometimes I forget that some women don’t make it a priority.
Another thing to think about is that we need to help people understand about how much is actually costs to go to school. It is amazing how much people borrow with absolutely no idea how they will pay it back (usually younger college students). They are often less frugal than they should be because of easy credit.
I have completed a BA because it never occurred to me to not finish. I was raised to go to college like I was raised to go to kindergarten.
Unfortunately, I do not exactly have a career that I could step into. I don’t feel too bad because even if I had trained for something specific, once I am out of the job market for 16 years, I wouldn’t be marketable anyway. So, when I do enter the job market again, I will have to consider my options for training which may include a masters in a different field, or just a few classes in a different field. I’ll have to just wait and see what feels right when the time comes.
For me, provident living right now includes no debt, saving for retirement, etc. It would be extravagent to pay for tuition, but I already have a degree.
I generally notice that the women who quit college when they got married just weren’t that interested. They probably would have quit anyway.
Angela
May 21st, 2009 @ 12:58 pm

Paula, I think you’re right that a number of women might never need to enter the workforce, but that having a back-up plan is akin to life insurance, because none of us knows for sure.

I also wonder about those of us who might *want* to someday go back to work after raising our kids (or even during the raising), even if it’s not completely financially necessary. I agree that taking care of our children is our first priority as moms–it’s my first priority for sure–but my teaching one class a semester allows our family money for some extras, and also allows me the chance to do something I love. I feel completely right with the Spirit in my choice to work part-time right now, although I realize that for other mothers and families it might not be the right choice.

I also look ahead to the days when my kids are out of the house. I have absolutely no problem with women who don’t want to enter the workforce ever again. I think there’s plenty to do as a homemaker/volunteer/Grandma to keep any woman busy and involved even after the kids are gone. But for me? I know that I’ll want to have some kind of work outside the home–perhaps even full time, who knows?–once my kids are grown. For many of us, our youngest will leave the house when we’re in our late 40s and early 50s, which leaves a lot of time to pursue a career, if that’s what’s wanted. So even if circumstances don’t turn out to be dire, getting an education allows a woman more opportunity to go down that path later in life if she chooses.

It’s all about options.
Carina
May 21st, 2009 @ 1:00 pm

I could not agree more vehemently.

I have been afforded flexibility, benefits, pay, and stock options because I had an education and the right experience to demand that kind of compensation.

It’s not a joke. You must get a degree. If not now, then as soon as you can.
Angela
May 21st, 2009 @ 1:05 pm

jks, you were commenting while I was.

Just one other quick observation: I grew up in an area where a college education wasn’t expected, especially not for women. For me and many of my friends, getting a 4 year degree was seen as quite an accomplishment. Many of my friends would have done very well in college, or even grad school, but they dropped out before finishing because they didn’t have that societal pressure or expectation. I know that some of them now have returned to school, and love it.

I agree, too, that provident living involves staying out of debt. It’s one thing to use a student loan to, say, finish up an undergraduate degree that allows a woman to get a better paying job (and some might disagree with doing even that). It’s another thing to kick around taking classes for years on end for the heck of it, and racking up debt along the way. Going into debt–or spending family resources–to go to school is also a personal decision and needs to be entered into prayerfully.
Angela
May 21st, 2009 @ 1:13 pm

And one last thing: let me put in a plug for online learning. Although I prefer an actual classroom for the personal interaction, I’ve also taught online classes and they can be fulfilling and interesting too. And they’re convenient, and flexible, and get you one step closer to your goal.
Heidi
May 21st, 2009 @ 1:23 pm

As a fellow MA/part-time English instructor (until the university had to lay off all their adjunct faculty), I’m a huge fan of college for everyone, including women.

BUT. I would have been one of the ones who shrugged and looked skeptical when you mentioned going back to school and getting a degree in times of financial crisis; I’m also a terribly practical type-A frugalite, and I don’t think that spending more money to “invest” in an education of questionable monetary value is the right move for families who are already financially struggling. That may be why you got some of the looks you got.
jendoop
May 21st, 2009 @ 1:31 pm

Something we have barely touched on is how being educated makes you a better servant. My personal example is that I want to help people with mental health problems. Would you want me to counsel your child without a degree? I hope we all want to give something to our world, to our community. If we are well trained and skilled the service that we give will be at an optimal level.
Brooke
May 21st, 2009 @ 1:50 pm

Okay, I will offer some points of disagreement. Hope this is welcome and doesn’t offend anyone. After all it is ONLY my OPINION.

I don’t disagree that a college education is important, but I like Emily M’s comment about it not being her season. I’m not sure that the point of your life where you have young children is the right SEASON to pursue a college education (maybe if you are taking one class online in the evenings after kids are in bed without interfering with time spent with your husband….or if all of your kids are in school and you work on it during the day…).

We all have a chance BEFORE we get married and BEFORE we have children to pursue a college education. I wish more young women would pursue their educational dreams and not be in such a rush to have children. I wish all young men would take responsibility to get the education they need to provide for their family so that their future wife can be a full-time mother without worrying about helping to provide. When we as women find it necessary to help PROVIDE for our families, are we providing necessities (such as food, clothing, shelter) or are we working for the EXTRAS (expensive car, huge home, travel, etc.). When my husband and I were considering getting married, I spoke to him about the lifestyle I wanted (stay at home mom, vacations with kids, extra money for sports and music lessons.) We agreed on our future lifestyle. We waited to get married, and waited to have children so that we could have that lifestyle. It’s all about choices.

When I hear talks that admonish us to educate ourselves, I think of becoming self sufficient. Learning how to do things that I may depend on others to do: home repairs, growing my own food, educating my children. Those are the things I CAN learn to do in THIS season of my life.
Faith Not Fear
May 21st, 2009 @ 2:05 pm

When I first read these lines that Merlyn the magician tells the future King Arthur, I knew T.H. White had touched on a gospel truth about learning — we have this life, and the next, to learn the wonders of God and His creations — I can’t wait!

And Heavenly Father didn’t ask us to gain knowledge to be better than each other, but to help each other — it is a key to serving, thus a cure for being sad, too!

“The best thing for being sad,”
replied Merlyn, beginning to puff and blow,
“is to learn something.
That is the only thing that never fails.

You may grow old and trembling in your anatomies,
you may lie awake at night listening
to the disorder of your veins,
you may miss your only love,
you may see the world about you
devastated by evil lunatics,
or know your honour trampled
in the sewers of baser minds.

There is only one thing for it then–to learn.
Learn why the world wags and what wags it.

That is the only thing
which the mind can never exhaust,
never alienate, never be tortured by,
never fear or distrust, and never dream of regretting.

Learning is the thing for you.
Look at what a lot of things there are to learn–
pure science, the only purity there is.
You can learn astronomy in a lifetime,
natural history in three,
literature in six.

And then,
after you have exhausted a milliard lifetimes
in biology and medicine and theocriticism
and geography and history and economics–
why, you can start to make a cartwheel
out of the appropriate wood,
or spend fifty years learning
to begin to learn to beat your adversary at fencing.

After that you can start again on mathematics,
until it is time to learn to plough.”

–T.H. White’s “The Once and Future King”
Faith Not Fear
May 21st, 2009 @ 2:12 pm

I know that colleges, universities offer some kind of scholarship based on need/hardship? — ask the Financial Aid office & Alumni department — hope that helps someone get the help they need to get started!!!

I agree with the importance of learning things in their season — watching a plumber fix my sink once saved me $$$, and I learned how in my own kitchen!

I wish they would offer refresher courses for parents of teens taking … Algebra, Geometry…! By the end of the year I sort of get it, but have a couple of years before I have to apply it again — and those brain cells leave before their time .
Michelle Glauser
May 21st, 2009 @ 2:14 pm

I just finished reading Betty Friedan’s Feminine Mystique today and have been thinking about her solution all day long. Although it sounds good to say, “They should all go out and catch up on the education they missed,” I hope that more now are finishing the education earlier. I don’t think it’s ideal to say, “Hey, let’s leave the kids at home while I go take care of this,” unless the hubby can somehow watch the kids during evening classes or something.

I do have to agree with you about the older ladies going back to school, though. Every time I had a “retired mother” in one of my classes, she dazzled us all. She did all the homework and even did extra research. She wasn’t afraid to give her opinion and had a focus none of us seemed to have. She knew what she was going for.
Coffinberry
May 21st, 2009 @ 2:15 pm

Respecting the season you’re in, and seeking personal inspiration are the key for any woman in deciding how to use her time and resources. While all seasons are for learning, some are not suited for formal learning. One of the first things to do to convince someone of their need to continue learning is to help them see what they already learn every day. When learning is seen as something already in process, it is not so strange a proposition.

I told my Primary class Sunday that one of the things every Saint needs to live well and be happy are a trade and tools of that trade, and that this was necessary for girls as well as boys (teaching Law of Consecration to eleven-year-olds… who’d a’thunk it?). We are happiest when we are useful and actively learning daily.

—Coffinberry, who started grad school at age 40.
Angela
May 21st, 2009 @ 2:20 pm

Brooke, I don’t think your opinion is offensive. I appreciate you sharing it. I do think we need to be mindful of the seasons of our lives, and for many of us, going to school when our children are young might not be the right choice.

Speaking only of myself, however, I feel that going to school part time while my children were small didn’t infringe on my time with them in a destructive way. For the most part, my husband was with my children while I was at school–although every once in a while my inlaws or babysitters stepped in. My husband was also fully capable of fixing dinner on nights I had to study, or of taking my kids to soccer practice.

And perhaps it’s bad to admit this, but I think it can be healthy to say to a kid: “Don’t bother your Mom right now. She’s busy. As soon as she’s done she’ll give you her undivided attention.”

Surely as mothers we’re not expected to dedicate every single waking hour to interacting with our children. We have church callings, volunteer to coordinate PTA events, work out, go shopping, watch television, read. Personally, I felt that spending one night a week going to class and a set number of hours during the week studying wasn’t any more damaging to my relationship with my children than any of the activities mentioned above, and offered some tangible benefits that, say, TV watching doesn’t.

And not all of us have a chance before marriage and children to finish school. Of course, it’s best if we do! But that’s not the reality for some—sometimes because of circumstances outside of a woman’s control, and sometimes because she might not have made the best choices at nineteen. Either way, I feel strongly that simply because a woman missed out on an education during the “traditional” time of life doesn’t mean she doesn’t deserve to obtain one.

I will say, though, that moderation in all things is obviously important to keep in mind. Any activity—formal education, exercise, even an obsession with one’s church calling—can get out of hand and start to take too big a toll on a person’s family life.
Angela
May 21st, 2009 @ 2:26 pm

Faith not Fear, thanks for the great quote!

Michelle, I haven’t read _The Feminine Mystique_ . . . but I think there’s probably some room between what I’m talking about and Betty Friedan. And aren’t “retired mothers” so great to have in a class?

And Coffinberry–personal inspiration is the key. I’m with you there!
Bethany
May 21st, 2009 @ 2:37 pm

Amen! And Amen!
G. Johnson
May 21st, 2009 @ 2:51 pm

Dear Friends,
I just graduated with a masters of social work degree after being a stay at home mom for 26 years. Most people expressed admiration when I announced I was going back to school. I was surprised by those who asked me why I was going back to school. Now I am surprised by those who say it would be nice “to do something with it” since I spent all the time and money to get the degree. I use what I learned several times every day! I am so grateful I had the opportunity to study social work. My life will never be the same because of the wonderful experiences I had going through the program. I encourage all women to improve and develop themselves–always. Thanks….Class of 2009 at age 59!
Angela
May 21st, 2009 @ 3:19 pm

Congrats, G. Johnson!!
jendoop
May 21st, 2009 @ 3:25 pm

COngratulations G. Johnson!
QueenScarlett
May 21st, 2009 @ 3:58 pm

I love this…LOVE LOVE LOVE this.

I just wanted to add – getting a formalized education doesn’t have to be “insurance” … it can be fun. I think as mothers we have a great responsibility to demonstrate a thirst for knowledge for our children. We are put here on this earth to learn as much as we can.

So I think…like Sister Kimball – we should want to, desire to…and find seasons, times when we can…and do it. Learning is invigorating, empowering and FUN!

Whether a woman chooses to go the formal route – or other… I think we all need to cultivate a love of learning in our souls. It might be harder for others – but the more we seek …the more we exercise those limbs of learning.
Justine
May 21st, 2009 @ 4:14 pm

I already have my degree, but I really want to go back to college and just take a bunch of really random classes, Roman History, Dress designing, philosophy of Keynes, English Romanticists, art history — it wouldn’t ever amount to any sort of coherent degree, but I would love to do it!
CatherineWO
May 21st, 2009 @ 4:23 pm

This subject is close to my heart, as we recently attended the BYU graduation of our oldest daughter. She started as a freshman at BYU fifteen years ago as an art major on an academic scholorship. After two and a half years, she married her hometown sweetheart, who was attending college at a different school. In the past fifteen years she and her husband have had three children, two miscarriages, three cancer surgeries, several lost jobs (one lengthy unemployment), and seven moves in five different states. With the help of the BYU BGS program, she graduated with honors as a history major. As she walked across the podium, her six-year-old son looked up at me with a big grin on his face and said, “Grandma, my mom won the prize!”
Indeed, she did.
becki
May 21st, 2009 @ 4:46 pm

I really appreciate this post. I’m currently pregnant and have two semesters left before I get my undergraduate degree. This gives me hope that I can finish (I mean, honestly I know I CAN, it’s not even that much school, but it feels daunting all the same), even if it is just one class at a time.
BYU Women's Services
May 21st, 2009 @ 4:54 pm

In response to “faith not fear” and her comment about going to the school and asking for financial assistance, etc. Women’s Services (sorry, shameless plug, but the only thing we get out of it is helping women)has a lot of great resources for women returning to college at the Y.

Information is available here on our website:

http://wsr.byu.edu/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2572&Itemid=3306
Melissa M.
May 21st, 2009 @ 4:59 pm

I was fortunate enough to be able to finish my Masters thesis when I was pregnant with my first child, and I received my Masters a few months after she was born. I have appreciated my education so much as I’ve raised my children. I had no idea how much my degrees in English Literature would help me in my mothering. I think, however, it would have been very difficult to get my Masters when my children were little, although the one class at a time idea would be a good way to go. I second Emily M’s comments–mothers should be prayerful as they make decisions about when it’s best to further their education; I know these decisions are individual. But I applaud women who make an effort to educate themselves, and I can’t stress enough to my daughters the importance of getting a college education. Living in Utah, I am still surprised at how many young women I know who get married at 19 or 20 and don’t finish school. Yikes! Now that I work with the Beehives in YW, I take every opportunity to stress the importance and value of getting a formal education. I hope some of it sinks in.
Angela
May 21st, 2009 @ 5:04 pm

Queen Scarlet, I agree with you wholeheartedly: education makes me feel alive. And Justine, if only I could go to school all the time (but alas . . .). I would love someday to have the opportunity to take classes just for the heck of it, though. Any class I wanted. The school where I got my MFA, Hamline University in Minnesota, has a Master of Arts in Liberal Studies that allows students to take a more broad based approach to education, and the courses always looked so dang interesting. (The tagline on Hamline’s website calls it a “Maser’s of Voracious Curiosity.”) I wish Utah had programs like Hamline’s.

Catherine, what an inspirational story! And Becki, two semesters is so doable. You can do it–even if it takes a bit longer.

And thank you to BYU Women’s Services! Not a shameless plug, but a helpful piece of information. Much appreciated!
Angela
May 21st, 2009 @ 5:12 pm

And Melissa, as far as parents of young children are concerned, I feel women who already have 4 year degrees and/or post-high school training are in a different situation than those women with no real education or training. I think a Master’s (or PhD) is a much more individual choice in those cases, since they’re more able to provide for their families in case of emergency. But if I had a daughter who got married and had kids before she finished her bachelor’s degree or other professional training? I’d encourage her to go back to school if at all possible, one class at a time, until it was finished. To me, that seems the provident thing to do. And I think it can be done with minimal family disruption.
Kate
May 21st, 2009 @ 5:23 pm

I’m pretty hard on myself (self critical and harsh), but one area in which I lavish myself with gratitude is the work I did to obtain my degrees. I am so thankful to my previous self for her sacrifices! “She” did it on a tiny income with a family, demanding callings, and a home to manage. Because “she” delayed gratification, gave up countless hours, paid the tuition, took the hard classes, and worked, my life is so blessed!

Finances require that I work, but because of my degrees I can work (very) part time at a job I love and still make a respectable wage. I never work weekends, holidays, overtime, or when my children are home from school. My job is rewarding, well-respected, and the working conditions couldn’t be better. And I could never have landed it without an education! Thank goodness my previous self was so determined!

For those of you who are doing the hard thing now….just know that your future self will be forever grateful!
Naismith
May 21st, 2009 @ 6:57 pm

I’m curious as to what programs allow part-time enrollment. My graduate program did not, and at the State U where I am employed, even undergrads must be enrolled full-time. I think these policies make it very hard for moms.

One thing for anyone planning on grad school is to use those naptimes and time at the park to study for the GRE or professional test. It really makes a difference. And having a University Fellowship made it much easier for me to handle three kids, since no assistantship was required.
Angela
May 21st, 2009 @ 7:08 pm

Naismith, I was lucky that my MFA program allowed part-time enrollment. I know that many don’t. Many undergrad programs do allow part-time studies, though–here in Utah both the U of U and BYU do.
mmiles
May 21st, 2009 @ 7:13 pm

Naismith,
I have no idea where you are at, but UC Berkeley (and probably all the UC schools) are very accommodating to parents with kids. They go by your circumstances, for both grad and undergrad programs. You can go part time. Other schools in my area also can be very family friendly.
mmiles
May 21st, 2009 @ 7:14 pm

I have a friend getting her masters part-time at Stanford too. I don’t think this is rare at all.
Amira
May 21st, 2009 @ 7:32 pm

I wish that the masters I want to get could be done part-time, but it has to be done full-time or close to that at one of about 3 universities in the country that offer what I want. So it’s not likely to happen while there are children at home, because even if I could go part-time, we’re not likely going to live near any of those universities for 4 years in a row.

Fortunately, there’s nothing stopping me from learning as much as I can about my chosen topic. I’m lucky too, because my husband is interested in the same thing.
Naismith
May 21st, 2009 @ 7:39 pm

I went to Texas-Austin.

Of course there are lots of MBA and education programs designed as part-time programs for those employed full-time, and moms could take advantage of those if they were interested.

But a few years ago I was offered a fellowship to get a doctorate in health policy, and it had to be full-time as well.
mmiles
May 21st, 2009 @ 7:41 pm

Naismith–
The programs I am referring to are neither in education or MBA programs.
mmiles
May 21st, 2009 @ 7:41 pm

Amira,
What’s your field?
Natalie
May 21st, 2009 @ 7:42 pm

In the three years since I graduated, nothing has given me more accomplishment than graduating. I tell the girls in YW that the NEED to get their degrees! I treasure it more than getting married — sorry I do, because it was that personal accomplishment. I mean, on judgement day — I’ll probably be proud of my marriage more because its a long term thing, but man, I love my degree.

And yes — its a support thing. I got my degree — got married three weeks later and 3 months after that was getting divorced when he got violent. I supported myself — and then got married to a fabulous man — and now support him through law school.

So really — it is a prep thing.
ESO
May 21st, 2009 @ 8:13 pm

Kate–I am totally with you.

Even if women feel a formal education is not for them in this season, we can educate ourselves in SO many ways! Participate in the community darkroom, take piano lessons, brush up on your ASL by going to ASL happy hours, check out those Berlitz tapes from the library to remind yourself about all the Spanish you have forgotten, take a class at Michaels, trade tutoring with your neighbor: you teach her to garden and she will teach you how to can. Or just join a book club.

It doesn’t have to cost money, but it can still enrich your life and wow your kids.
Tiffany W.
May 21st, 2009 @ 8:16 pm

I don’t think our society views education as less important for women than men. If one considers the numbers of men and women enrolling for colleges, women far outnumber men. I’ve read that many colleges and universities are beginning to look at ways to encourage more young men to enroll.

I’m grateful that I was able to earn a college degree. It was something that was very important to me. And both my husband and I sacrificed a great deal so that I could finish quickly before we began our family. Now that my husband has finished all of his schooling and our kids are getting older, my thoughts turn to my chance to return to school for my future degrees. That is exciting. Right now the timing is off for me, since I’ve got a baby on the way, but soon doesn’t feel that far off either.

And here’s an interesting thought. I read a book called the Case for Marriage where the authors claimed with some good evidence that the level of a woman’s education had a direct impact on her husband’s earning power and salary. The more education the woman had, the better salary her husband received. Isn’t that interesting?
ESO
May 21st, 2009 @ 8:18 pm

Naismith–it seems that all the public and private universities in my area (upstate NY) offer evening, part-time, and on-line courses or some variation thereof. They are smart to do so: masters degrees are money-makers for universities (they bleed it out on the doctorates).
mmiles
May 21st, 2009 @ 8:25 pm

Tiffany,

I read a book called the Case for Marriage where the authors claimed with some good evidence that the level of a woman’s education had a direct impact on her husband’s earning power and salary. The more education the woman had, the better salary her husband received. Isn’t that interesting?

So a woman that is more educated will choose a spouse with more earning power? That isn’t a surprise. Correlation does not equal causation.
Faith Not Fear
May 21st, 2009 @ 8:25 pm

Yeah! I’m so glad the Women’s Services chimed in!
I know there is money out there to help you when it’s your season!
(I’m still feeling paranoid about the “its” “it’s” thing — !)
Tiffany W.
May 21st, 2009 @ 8:32 pm

mmiles, it would take too long to respond to your question, and that wasn’t the assumption they were making. I would like to respond, but I don’t have the book in front of me so that I could direct quotes from it to clarify what they discussed. But the book was well-written by respected sociologists in the field, so I don’t think I would dismiss their conclusions or the studies done out of hand.
FoxyJ
May 21st, 2009 @ 9:24 pm

I did an MA at BYU and am in a PhD program at a UC school right now; for me, the difference between full-time and part-time has come to down to cost. If I go full-time I can receive a fellowship that pays all my tuition and a stipend for being a teaching assistant. But if I go part-time I have to pay for it all myself. It seems like many master’s and doctoral programs are like that; they’ll pay you to go to school, but only if you commit to full-time. If you do research and teach for them, they pay you for it.

At BYU for my master’s (and I believe this applies to all the humanities) they did not require me to attend full-time to qualify for tuition assistance; it was based on credit hours and as long as I took the required credits within 5 years my tuition was paid for. And I qualified to teach for them as well. I started my MA when my daughter was 1 and finished it three years later. I was mostly able to do it because my husband was also in graduate school and had a flexible schedule. We also did use some part-time babysitting, and I’ve always been comfortable leaving my kids for up to 10 hours a week for school stuff. Every parent is different like that. I like what others here have said about personal revelation and figuring out what season of life you’re in. After spending the first seven years of marriage in the school season we are both ready to be done!
mmiles
May 21st, 2009 @ 9:27 pm

Tiffany,
Fair enough.
Katie
May 21st, 2009 @ 9:57 pm

Thank you Angela, I loved this post.

I believe education to be so important for women. I graduated with my bachelors degree last year at age 20 and was married the week after graduation. This fall I will begin a MA program. My husband and I do not have children yet, but we do not intend to wait for me to finish my degree to start. While I am not a mother YET, I understand making decisions about education that greatly impact a family.

One of many sources of inspiration for me to pursue further education came from a professor who told me that the reality is that most women will work outside of the home at some point in their lives (whether by choice or necessity), and you might as well make it possible to get the job that you want.

I think that an essential part of our personal development lies in education. In the October 1997 General Relief Society Broadcast, President Thomas S. Monson said in his talk “The Mighty Strength of Relief Society” that “First, gain knowledge through study. In a vital revelation which has universal impact, the Lord declared: “And as all have not faith, seek ye diligently and teach one another words of wisdom; yea, seek ye out of the best books words of wisdom; seek learning, even by study and also by faith.”4
Each of you, single or married, regardless of age, has the opportunity to learn and to grow. Expand your knowledge, both intellectual and spiritual, to the full stature of your divine potential.”

Every woman has personal and family considerations when weighing her decision whether to go back for formal education or not, but I hope that even if a degree is not in the cards for someone right now that they are finding other ways to learn and grow.
Amira
May 21st, 2009 @ 10:11 pm

mmiles, I’d go back in Central Asian studies with the goal to teach Islamic civilization/history at a community college. Central Asian studies isn’t the only way to reach that goal, but it’s the way I’d want to do it.

Unfortunately, when I got by BA more than 11 years ago, Central Asia wasn’t my thing, so I couldn’t have done it then. And what I would have done then wouldn’t have been the right thing for me.
Selwyn
May 21st, 2009 @ 10:25 pm

I think encouraging women to further their education is a huge step in the right direction.

If they decide that that means increasing their knowledge and experience in dressmaking, or going to university, or TAFE (technical college), or even a belly dancing class I’m excited for them – I believe what matters is they are learning and doing something educational.

I’m hiring a teacher to teach me chemistry and biology to further my knowledge and possibly improve my application to nursing next year. It’s scary, but it’s worthwhile. That’s what I keep telling myself!

It can be a seasonal issue as some have said, that “right now” isn’t a good time to go back to school, but we can always learn something more about a topic we’re interested in. It doesn’t have to be something in a classroom – but it certainly doesn’t have to be something out of one either!

I’m in the position now of having to look long term, and work out what I need to do to support myself and my sons for the rest of my life. Education is the only avenue to do so. The fact is that I wish I had pushed stronger to do those things that I wanted to learn (belly dancing class, medical based courses), that I put off because I put others’ wants before my own needs. At the time it made a sort of sense, in a matyred type of way in some instances, to make sure my family had what they wanted, even if it meant that I was disappointed.

Now I look at it and see that it would have strengthened me as an individual, to be able to do something FOR ME, that was constructive, instructive and creative.

Sometimes it’s the fear in thinking “maybe I CAN’T” that stops us from even trying, and instead we make the excuses instead of the effort.

Maybe you could have a mini-mini-class on the available options for learning? Let everyone know the options online, schedules for one class a year, local community colleges etc, or even private tutoring (even bartering to minimise costs!) If you take away the unknowns people may realise that it isn’t impossible after all.
Kalli
May 21st, 2009 @ 11:19 pm

This is all well and good and believe you me, I am all for women earning an education. I may be assuming here, but I think that most of the women who read Segullah have a good amount of secondary education so OF COURSE we’re going to get behind the cause.

I do have this observation to add…over the last few years I have been more then impressed by the ingenuity and hard work of women I know who may not necessarily be college educated. These women have created their own businesses, worked online, become entrepreneurs, you name it I’ve seen it. There are bright, hard working women all around. They deserve to be recognized and not just because they may or may not have a college education. A formal education isn’t necessary for everyone to be survive and succeed in life. Some may need it, some may not.

I do love the idea of encouraging continuing education for those who can or want to as part of a provident living activity, as the enrichment counselor in my ward you can be sure that I will be doing that. Learning in general should always be encouraged and sought after. My main regret from my college days is that I worked too much and didn’t make enough time to really learn what I was studying and seek out those subjects I was interested in outside of what I was required.

I want more than anything to earn my Masters and continue on with my formal education, and I will when the time is right for ME. There is always a way to make things happen if you want them badly enough.
mmiles
May 22nd, 2009 @ 12:13 am

Amira,
I was guessing Central Asian Studies. I guess it is kind of tough to do that just anywhere! I really think, though, like you already said, studying all you can language-wise, etc, puts you a huge leg up when the time comes to pursue it. You certainly read plenty! Keep it up, I’m sure you’ll achieve your goals and dreams.

I think you’re on to something when you say, “And what I would have done then wouldn’t have been the right thing for me.” I know better what I want to do now than I did before having children, etc. I think I’ll know even better later too.
Maralise
May 22nd, 2009 @ 6:38 am

AMEN
Angela
May 22nd, 2009 @ 8:18 am

Selwyn, I really like the idea of a mini-class about education options. That’s a great idea.

Kalli, I’m with you as far as the intelligence and work ethic of women who might not have a college education. As I said previously, where I grew up, relatively few women had 4-year college degrees and many of my friends from high school still don’t, and these are bright, hard working women whom I respect very much. My mom doesn’t have a college degree and is intelligent and well-respected and has done very well in the career she began after my youngest sister went to elementary school. But would she have had more options in that career choice if she had a degree? Definitely.

A college degree isn’t the answer for every single woman. But I will say that having one opens up doors of opportunity, allows more flexibility in women’s choices, and generally makes it easier for a woman to get a job (and a job that she might even like) if and when she needs to. It can give a woman options (and, of course, enrich her life in other ways too).

I also agree with what you said about missing out on some things during your undergrad years. I certainly did. Like Amira, who wasn’t ready for Central Asian Studies 11 years ago, I wasn’t ready in my early 20s to begin an MFA program in fiction writing. I hadn’t matured enough as a writer or as a liver of life. My opportunity for my Master’s came along at a time in my life where I was ready for it and it was ready for me. Educational opportunities can pop up for all of us in *any* decade of our lives and it could be the right time.
Kristin
May 22nd, 2009 @ 9:06 am

My great-grandmother graduated from college…when women just didn’t go to college. Most men didn’t either.

She left a legacy for her posterity that we would all get advanced degrees. I appreciate your suggestion to your ward, and your great support for furthering our education.

Brooke, I am so glad that it worked for you to plan things out in advance with your husband, and make choices you can feel good about. But I do not think that waiting until you are all settled with your education and finances before marriage and children is the right choice for everyone. The brethren have counseled against postponing these things, so I think we need to be extremely cautious and prayerful when making choices about timing. Please do not feel that I am saying you made the wrong choice here. I am a firm believer in our right to personal revelation, and if that worked for you, that’s wonderful. However, when you see another person who got married young and had children young and struggled financially as a result, that doesn’t necessarily mean they made a mistake. Maybe those are the experiences the Lord prepared for them, and by following inspiration and his timing, that is just where they are.

I guess I am just saying, that we need to be careful that when we make the right choices for us, that we don’t extrapolate out our answers and judge others against them. Does that make sense? I do appreciate your viewpoint though.

“And not all of us have a chance before marriage and children to finish school. Of course, it’s best if we do! But that’s not the reality for some—sometimes because of circumstances outside of a woman’s control, and sometimes because she might not have made the best choices at nineteen.”

Angela, I would add: And sometimes because the woman has prayerfully considered other choices, and finishing an education before marriage and children isn’t what she feels the Lord would have for her, she makes different choices based on inspiration…choices which might actually be the best choices for her, even at nineteen.

By the way, that whole line of “Isn’t that a lot of education for a Mom?” drives me CRAZY! Can a mom without degrees be a good mom? Definitely. Does my college education help me as a Mom? Definitely. It was not wasted. And someday, in another season, I hope to go back for a masters. You have inspired me to think about going back a little earlier than maybe I would have otherwise.
Angela
May 22nd, 2009 @ 9:23 am

Kristin, I agree with you–there are times when a couple gets married and starts a family before finishing school because they’re inspired to do so. I got married when I was 20 and my husband was 21. He had three whole college classes under his belt. (And I remember two of them: “Trees and Shrubs” and “Scuba Diving.” It’s become something of a running joke. . We had two kids by the time my husband got his bachelor’s degree. Was our set-up ideal? Ummmm, no. But would I have changed it and waited years to marry him? Definitely not. We made it work.

We can all make it work.
Nan
May 22nd, 2009 @ 9:50 am

What a wonderful post. I was thinking about some of these same issues over the last few weeks when thinking about the young women I teach. I compiled some of these thoughts, much more clumsily than you did, into a blog post and was amazed at the varied feedback toward the concept of “ambition.” When I was teaching school full time while my husband returned to school, we had two young children; an older teacher whom I respected enormously both as a colleague and as a church member looked me right in the eye and said, “Your teaching certificate will be the greatest life insurance policy you ever have.”

In regards to our own lives, we need to look at prophetic counsel to stay at home AND to take care of our families and then get on our knees and ask the Lord to help us find the very best way for us to be obedient. Then, we must trust that each sister we know is doing the same and not offer judgments of unsolicited advice. It is not about working moms versus stay at home moms, it is about sisterhood and supporting one another with as much love and encouragement as possible.
Angie f
May 22nd, 2009 @ 10:00 am

Only one of my four grandparents graduated from college. They came from solid Utah farmer stock. But, both of my parents and nearly all of their siblings have graduated from college and most have gotten at least one advanced degree beyond that. For my family, the question was never ‘will you go?’ but ‘where and what degrees will you seek?’ My mother finished her masters degree 3 weeks after I, her first born, arrived on the scene. She worked a little after I was born until my dad was finished with his masters and then here and there to save for a down payment or stretch during underemployment for my dad etc, but she was entirely out of the workplace for many years. She was out for long enough and had a technical enough degree (speech pathology) that for her to go back at this point would require a great deal of school in a field that has morphed into something she doesn’t really want anyway. That said, she has gotten two jobs in entirely unrelated fields BECAUSE she had a degree, any degree. The HR people took that as a sign of maturity, responsibility and general stability that she could stick to not one but two degree programs to their completion, even though their completion was 30+ years ago. She is also (and I would imagine this is true in many employment situations) eligible for raises and promotions at least in part because of the level of her education, regardless of the specific degree.

The interesting thing for me–that my parents stressed education so much– (although they never really SAID education is important, they just DID it) is that I have 4 sisters and no brothers. It never occurred to me that education wouldn’t be as important (or more so, aren’t WE teaching our children?) for women as for men. I watched my mother’s friends who in times of layoffs and other financial struggles could only find work in retail or other low paying, bad hours jobs (because they had no education beyond high school), while my mom could get jobs that used her brain and rewarded her education while paying bills at a better rate than the bad jobs. All 5 of us have our bachelors, 2 of us have grad degrees and the other 3 have plans for graduate degrees when seasons of life are more conducive but all of us have very real and ever changing plans about how to be marketable and stay marketable even when we’re not in the workplace. That is what I took from the original post about how education can encourage more provident living. Provident living isn’t just clipping coupons and cutting expenses. It is planning for as many eventualities of the future as you can and education, degrees, SKILLS that you can turn into a job that you enjoy that feeds your family when the need arises is definitely provident living in my book.

Perhaps in addition to the fabulous idea for a mini-class regarding educational opportunities, there could be mini-classes about starting a business, setting up an etsy shop, negotiating to work from home, how to make and keep yourself marketable in a changing world.
Faith Not Fear
May 22nd, 2009 @ 10:21 am

Amen, Nan!

And Angela, I’m going to forward your mini class ideas to our RS pres & my mother-in-law (enrichment committee). I would love to take classes like that, esp. now! Thank you!!!
Angie
May 22nd, 2009 @ 2:10 pm

What a coincidence! I was the guest speaker last night at our ward’s enrichment night mini class – all about college, education, job searches, etc. I love this topic and wholeheartedly believe in the value of education!!!
Mommom
May 22nd, 2009 @ 4:07 pm

I am going to go through and read all 78 replies as I need this conversation at the moment. It reminds me why I’m on my present course. However, I have to add a bit before I do. If someone else has already posted this or if it interrupts the current flow, I apologize.

I knew when I got married, though I was 19, that it was time and it was the right man. I knew when it was time to start trying to have children even though we’d been married only 8 months, he arrived after I turned 21. I thought I knew that meant we couldn’t afford for me to take classes. I felt I needed to “hold down the fort” so to speak and learn what I could using the tools I had.

I still know I got married at the right time and had children they were meant to come to our family. After trying to get a job and trying to use my part-time and volunteer experience on a resume without formal education I really wish I had taken at least some classes. Who knows how far along I’d be after 20 years or so. I have the knowledge to compete, but employers REALLY want verifiable education/certification. Especially when you can graduate from high school now with some of that certification.

I’m headed back to school. My memory isn’t what it used to be (it wasn’t ever great!). I start classes this fall. I’ve researched degree programs. I want something I’ll enjoy and I want it to be marketable when completed. I have to be able to get a job where I live without transferring my entire family or it needs to at least be a possibility. I’ve researched grants (we don’t qualify) and scholarships (some I might be able to get) to help offset the cost. If you are a woman and demonstrate financial need then there are even more available.

I have watched in our ward as some sisters faced some very tough times due to divorce. No one plans to have that happen, but it did for them. And if my husband were or rather WHEN he passes away (it will happen – though I admit I’m selfish and want to be first) I want to be able to provide for myself and anyone else that may need me.

And I want to be able to have money to travel when I retire (you need to be able to pay for your own missions when your a senior.)
E
May 22nd, 2009 @ 7:24 pm

Before I give my opinion on this, I want to say that this is just a general opinion, and I do not necessarily think it applies to everyone, and if you prayerfully make a different decision that you feel good about, that’s great.

I disagree with those who feel that mothers of young children should not pursue education because it is not “in season”. I do not think, in general, that it is wrong at all for a mother to prepare to support herself and her family. Even if it means that she does not give her full undivided attention to her children 24 hours a day. I rather think it is unwise to assume that those skills will not be needed until after the children are grown. There are too many women who find themselves alone with young children and no way to provide adequately for them.

I also think that sometimes we take things to extremes, including stay-at-home mothering. Raising children does require a tremendous commitment, but not everything has to be done at home, including study and, when needed, work. I have known so many women in financial crisis who have tried to make extra money by doing things at home that they don’t like or that pay very little. A focused commitment to education or vocational training for as little as two years after high school can make a tremendous difference but too many women, IMO, unfortunately neglect to get that training done and later pay the price.
Amy So
May 22nd, 2009 @ 7:25 pm

I am consistently surprised at how often I hear people make comments that suggest their daughters don’t need as much education as their sons. This makes me nuts!

I started my degree when my daughter was one; when I finished I’d had another baby and was pregnant with a third. It was HARD. I sometimes questioned the life choices I’d made that brought me to being a married-with-children college student. But, you know, it was doable. Everyone managed. And I HAVE had to use my degree. I have been thankful for it in countless prayers, and I can see exactly where the Lord’s hand was in ensuring I fulfilled that life goal at that time.

I still want to go back for a Master’s. But I have also felt that now is not the time. Not quite yet. So I am just relying on faith to let me feel OK with the waiting. It will come when it is time. Maybe for the women who are NOT working on their education, it is simply not the right time, yet.

But I do share your sentiments, so strongly. In a sense, I didn’t push and work so hard to get my degree for anyone else but ME. I WANTED to be there, learning, and not even because it might help my family in the future, but because it was helping ME become more of the person I am. That it has also helped me family has been a great blessing, absolutely, but not one of more worth than what it did for me.
Leslie
May 24th, 2009 @ 4:44 pm

Excellent discussion- I am such a believer in education. I think my mothers graduate degree was a strong factor in my goals for higher education from childhood.

I spent the weekend at a professional conference in Boston. The first day I coincidentally ran into another LDS mom. We both stay at home with our kids but keep current in our field and do some work on the side. We remarked at how not only is it great to have the skills to work if needed but the incredibly way our lives are enriched by our passions and our skills! Education is EMPOWERING!

I was lucky to finish grad school before i got married. I would love to continue my education but couldn’t balance both right now well. Higher education work loads are more significant. A graduate school class with tons of 30 page papers and hundreds of pages of reading can make a signifcant impact on family life so I do think it is really important to weight out the time constraints, going slowly etc.

Amen though angela! Schooling, certifications, training programs rock! They are definitely an under-remembered component of provident living.
Sara R
May 24th, 2009 @ 6:44 pm

Education does not necessarily mean sitting in a classroom, gaining credits. There is a lot of education that young mothers can gain just in raising her children and answering their questions. I remember when my 4-year-old asked me if flies had hearts. I didn’t know! I had to look it up. (Yes, they do have a primitive heart.) I have homeschooled my kids, and there is so many fun things to learn in that context. Libraries are free sources of education for anyone who can read and has the discipline to study.

Yes, formal education is important as well. I was blessed to be able to finish before I had children. I feel strongly that the time for formal education is usually before children arrive. Unless a young woman marries much younger than average, if she uses her time well, there is usually time to be have most of college done before marriage, and the remainder done before children.

When we had young children, we had absolutely no money left in the budget for extras. The money was going towards medical bills and our small home; we didn’t have the money for my school. If I had taken loans out, I would have felt pressure for my income to repay those loans. Women who want to be stay-at-home moms should especially avoid student loan debt. Being prepared for storm clouds is great, but it’s unwise to create more storm clouds (through debt) in an attempt to prepare for something that may or may not happen. Student loans are not bankruptable and I know many people who are in bad financial straits because they didn’t think long and hard before taking out student loans.

Lastly, canning is expensive? I suppose it is if you buy the produce to can, and if you buy all of the equipment new, and you don’t use it very much. Canning is good for preserving food you produce yourself or that you can acquire free or cheap.
Lisa
May 24th, 2009 @ 9:07 pm

Loved the post and reading all the comments.

Graduated with a BA in English two years ago – I walked with my oldest son who was graduating with a BS in Business. It was one of the best days of my life.

I had put my husband through college and had two kids by the time he finished and three more after that. When the youngest started first grade, my husband drove me to the university and helped me enroll. I was scared to death. It took me seven years to finish. I couldn’t have done it without a supportive husband and children.

The best part is filling out those survey forms that ask you how much education you have – love filling out the college education bubble.
Angela
May 25th, 2009 @ 8:07 am

Thanks again for all of your opinions and experiences. It’s clear that everyone’s life circumstances are different, and that within our “seasons” of live, there’s a huge diversity of needs, circumstances, and practical considerations. Each of us is also privy to personal revelation about the specifics of our life choices–the when, whys, and hows of accomplishing our goals.

But I stand firm to my primary assertion: that it is provident for a mother to have post-high school education and/or training, and even if that education takes a very long time to obtain, or if it must be put off for a season, having the goal in mind will ultimately make a woman’s family more secure, her personal options more varied, and her mortal experience more rich.
Laura
August 10th, 2009 @ 12:10 pm

Hooray for your article! I am 44 and just went back to school in March. I have always regretted not finishing my college degree after being married. Life happens, and everytime I tried to enroll while our sons were in school something would happen that would keep me from school. Well 25 years later with a son on a mission and being new empty nesters, I decided it was MY turn. Yes it is really hard and I am struggling, but I am going to graduate and no one is going to steal my dreams. I too finally knew what I wanted to be when I grew up – a Medical Assisant. I will be 47 when I graduate, just starting my career. My son is so proud of me and encourging in his weekly letters. My husband is amazing. His support is vital. I also drive a school bus and can fit my classes in between route times. I love school! My brain in literally waking up and I have more self-confidence in my abilities and myself. The young students don’t even have a clue about life with their tatoos and crazy piercings. I feel so great knowing I am obeying the prophet in school instead of watching Jeopardy everyday for my “continuing education.” I will be the first wife and mother on my husband’s side to graduate with a college degree.
Gary
August 10th, 2009 @ 2:37 pm

I guess I may be the first, and maybe only guy to comment here. But this is an important subject!

My wife has a Master’s degree. She got that after our children were in school. I would gladly help her do more. My first dauighter has a BA. My other daughter is thirty something with four children. Her husband became ill and cannot hold a full time job. She is presently in her last year of the nursing program, and my wife and I are gladly paying her house payment, and anything else we can, to help her. It is her only hope of a normal life, out of poverty. THAT IS THE LONG VIEW. There are people who gain an education and still get ill. There are those who who gain and education and still cannot find adequate employment. But look up the numbers. Education is the single best predictor of a provident life that exists.