“Great minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, small minds discuss people.”
– Eleanor Roosevelt or Admiral Hyman G. Rickover or an Anonymous Proverb.
(Take your pick.)
That quote has haunted me for years.
It invariably pops in my head, especially during the inopportune times when I’m (of course) talking about people. It nags at me, prodding me to audit my conversations and determine just what level of discussion I’ve been employing recently.
I think we can all agree that we don’t want to be labeled as “average,” not to mention the classification of a “small” mind. However, it seems all-too-easy to fall into the trap of discussing people over ideas. To be frank, talking about ideas can be difficult, if only because it takes more of your attention than a chat over the latest social news would.
Trying to imagine such a conversation borders on humorous:
Me: Alex! It’s been ages! How are you?
Alex: I’m doing well. How have you been?
Me: Oh, I’m doing well, too. Poverty-line Brazilian citizens, however, couldn’t say the same. Did you hear about the protests before the World Cup?
Wait, wait, no. That would be an event. We’re only hitting average-levels here. Let’s try again:
Me: Alex! So good to see you again!
Alex: You as well! What’s been keeping you occupied?
Me: Well, to be honest, I’ve been consumed with the argument of worthy government spending. Is it logical to invest in a huge event that will raise the international profile of your country, yet have no economic benefit to your citizens? Or is that money better spent on low-income housing, hospitals, and schools? How do you decide where to allocate funds, and what overarching principles should guide your national budget?
There. That’s a greater conversation. But how do you get to that point? Where do you even start, and how do you ramp up that gateway, greeting comment into a full-fledged philosophical discourse?
Not to play the devil’s advocate, but aren’t there some “great” people who still discuss other people? When parents talk about their children and worry about how to help them navigate through the trials of adolescence, is that small? When visiting teaching companions discuss the sisters they visit and determine how to best serve them, is that the mark of a lesser mind?
Or is it simply a matter of proportions? Perhaps we’re allowed to discuss people and events as well as ideas, but in a 20:30:50 ratio. A minute or two of the latest gossip, but then quickly move on to the more pressing matters.
It couldn’t hurt to debate ideas more often, of course. There’s a part of me that wishes for more of that meaningful subject matter in my life. A part that hankers after a good, long conversation that delves into society and ideologies. I wonder if anyone would take the bait, though. Would you knowingly engage in a discussion if you knew it would turn to philosophy? And where is such a discussion held? Do you host a salon in your home and invite a Q&A after the keynote speaker? Is there an informal way to invite this type of an exchange?
Maybe my trepidation comes from the fear of inadequacy. People and events are simpler to discuss than ideas. Ideas take real thought and consideration. I’m afraid that if I start on that path, I’ll quickly reveal myself as out-of-touch and uninformed. So I avoid it. I stick to what’s easy and let others handle the heavy mental lifting. I approach discussions like a competition, and I’m afraid I’ll lose (and thereby lose acceptance) because my argument is not fully fleshed-out.
But that excuse is no longer good enough. I’ve decided to demand more of myself. It’s easy to talk about trash, to gossip, but it’s juicy and less responsible. It’s time we believe that our insights are just as valid as anyone else’s and deserve to be shared. That it’s possible to share without necessarily coming to a conclusion, and that both parties are better off for it. Starting today (even if it’s only today), I’m going to be a great mind.
Do you find it easy to discuss ideas? What are your conversation pitfalls? What overarching principles SHOULD guide a national budget?
Wow. Uh, this. This this this. You've laid out these ideas so perfectly that I'm still struggling in my brain to put coherent words together. I've been asking myself this question and getting nowhere with it: "But how do you get to that point? Where do you even start, and how do you ramp up that gateway, greeting comment into a full-fledged philosophical discourse?" I get so excited about conversation that delves into ideas, and though I'm lucky enough to live with a brilliant roommate who also gets excited about ideas, she's the only person with whom I can discuss ideas regularly. I have a handful of other people to whom I am close enough that I can discuss ideas occasionally. And I ache for more people to talk with, and I've got no idea how to find them.
Don't get me wrong: ideas aren't the only thing I care about, and I don't think discussing more concrete things is bad. In fact, I think there's a "lower" intellectual level than "talking about people," and I fully admit to indulging in this level, which is talking about people as images. Conversations with my brilliant roommie are just as likely to start with "Look at this picture of Benedict Cumberbatch. LOOK AT IT. HOW IS HE REAL??" as with "So I've been thinking about what you said last week about the intersectionality of obedience and agency…"
So yeah, how DO you build relationships toward the discussion of ideas, given that people often look atcha funny when you dive into philosophy? (Especially single guys at munch 'n' mingle. Munch 'n' mingle is not a time for philosophy, apparently.)
"That it’s possible to share without necessarily coming to a conclusion, and that both parties are better off for it. "
Love this!
I love a long, deep conversation, but you're right — those seem hard to come by. Maybe that's why we treasure them? But then, sometimes I'm too tired or lazy to get beyond Benedict Cumberbatch (you crack me up, Jes) so maybe your ratio approach is the best we can manage in this telestial kingdom. I've been stuck in an airport since 4:30 this morning and I admit I just read all the covers of the gossip magazines as I passed the newsstand. No deep conversations yet today.
As far as ideas that should guide a national budget: sustainability and thought for the future, not political expediency.
I think one of the things I run into in regard to conversations about ideas is that most "ideas" worth talking about contain elements of controversy. As one with strong opinions, I hesitate delving into topics I'm passionate about because I don't want to shock or offend. Perhaps it was different in times past, but it seems now that disagreement = argument and that people either aren't interested in or feel threatened by hearing different viewpoints.
I think the real kicked of why we avoid hard topics and ideas is because they are hard. It is much easier and often less polarizing to talk about other people and simple things. Talking about the weather is easy. Talking about issues gets trickier. I have an email I need to write, but I know it will take some thought and time to respond the way I should, so I'm waiting until I have that time. It takes time and effort to speak well and effectively, to think through what you want to say and say it in a way that conveys your feeling and reflects the relationship with whom you are speaking to.
Yeah, I'd like to be better too.
Jes, Lisa and Lindsay–Thanks for your comments! I'm glad to know I'm not the only one who savors deep conversations, yet doesn't always know how to start them.
I agree with you, Lisa–the rarity of conversations about ideas do make them more precious and worth treasuring. Maybe that's really the test of friendship–being able to talk about anything (including broad ideas that could be termed as controversial). I will admit, the times I've been able to talk ideas with someone I didn't know very well at the start have been some of my most fascinating conversations.
My own marriage could be inadvertently attributed to one such conversation. The first time I hung out with my to-be husband, he was just a boy in my college ward that I didn't know particularly well. We started telling stories about our past and that storytelling evolved into discourse about a broad range of topics (homosexuality and Mormonism, the fine line between admiration and obsession, evolution, etc.). We bonded quickly through the vulnerability of sharing so much of ourselves and our thoughts, and that bond turned into a friendship lasted years. Years later, that friendship turned into a relationship and the relationship stuck.
I'm not saying every idea-centric discussion will turn into marriage, but there's something to be said about the connection forged through conversations focused on more than easy, bite-sized subjects. I guess the trick is having the courage to broach the topic.
With that being said, I do have to admit that I have an undying love for Benedict Cumberbatch and his unmatched face. 🙂
I've been so distracted by the mention of Benedict that my mind cannot focus any longer on great things.
It's funny to me that you up the topics of national and international economic policies …
I'm near the end of reading a nonfiction book by an industry whistle-blower named–oops, that's a person–who spent years trying to get a key government institution to investigate the Ponzi scheme–oops, that event is named after a person–investment practices of–oops, I almost got specific about another person. Well, the book tells what happened to the US and global economies when–oops, that was certainly a noteworthy event. Hmm … The book relays why all eggs shouldn't go into one basket, why counting on serving up chickens from those eggs before they have hatched (and grown) is foolish, and why barnyard predators aren't the best choices as hen house guards.
While I LOVE the intent of the "great minds" quotation, I believe some of the best ways to exchange ideas necessitate drawing on common ground before diverging into differences. Shared events (and their dissection) can provide a powerful basis for such communication. Another effective way to relay ideas is through telling stories about people (whether real or imagined).
Answer this question with the first thing that pops into your mind: What did Jesus Christ teach?
(Still thinking? That's okay. Take your time.)
Did you think of pure doctrinal teachings (ideas)or did you recall a story about his specific interactions with people (events)or his parables (about people)? The scriptures tell us he used all methods. For example, we learn about several principles (ideas) in the story about the woman (person)caught in the act of adultery and dragged to Jesus for judgement (event). In this parable we learn to follow Jesus' example of not rushing to judgement, of not berating but uplifting the sinner, of realizing we're better off clasping our hands in prayers of forgiveness rather than in possession of accusatory stones.
Thank you, Teresa – you've beautifully written the resolution to the quandary I've experienced for so long with this quote. For my peace of mind, you have nailed it. I've sat in uncomfortable spaces of silence with individuals, needing to take the initiative to begin a conversation, and been stilted because of that quote playing over and over in my mind. You've freed me! Many, many thanks.
Your example of the Savior's life is perfect. Perhaps instead of seeing discussion of people as an indicator of small minds, we should substitute gossip being the sign of a small mind. There is a difference between that and a discussion of "people" as shown in Teresa's example.
Discussing people does not exclusively mean that you are gossiping. When you are discussing a problem that someone is going through, for example, you are not talking about that person so much as talking about ideas of how to help that person resolve their problem.
You really cannot truly discuss ideas without discussing people and events. HOW you put into practice an idea is through people and events. Discussing theories does nothing to improve anyone's life; it is only HOW we implement those ideas into practical life that we can test whether or not they are valid and helpful or not. And discussing with each other how the implementation of those ideas is going with others is one of the best ways to determine their efficacy.
Hilarious,Tay!
I grew up in a home where we discussed politics and black holes at the dinner table (separately, although I suppose one could argue that there are similarities). My husband's family always rehashed the local scandals. Although I love my in-laws, who are very good people, I really appreciate that my parents passed on a tradition of discussing ideas instead of gossiping.
And I do think that's what the quote advocates.
I love discussing ideas, quandries, hypotheticals and so on, and have raised my sons (though not deliberately) on the same.
I had a great conversation this week with a friend about the historical, economic and psychological changes of marriage – while we watched our sons' swim lessons, no less! – and it was both invigorating, fascinating and fun.
It's one reason I love TED talks so much, because they make you think about all sorts of things in different ways.
As for national budget: the Australian parliament is trying to pass a very rigorous, demanding budget, to much public dissatisfaction. The principles are solid, but the way they've 'sold' it to the public is atrocious. Debt needs to be slashed, economies stabilised, but the offset cost to the public needs to be carefully considered too. Great topic for discussion!
Teresa–Thank you so much for bringing up the example of the Savior. I agree with you in that discussing people and events is worthwhile in that it helps establish common ground. Perhaps the key is to follow Christ's example by using people and events in conversation, but not stopping there. I feel like Christ's sermons always transcended to be about ideas, even if they were a simple parable (e.g. discussing something as base as a mustard seed allowed him to bring up the idea of faith). Instead of just saying "what," the discourse always leads us on to ask "why" (which, to me, means there's an idea in play).
I also like Nana11's point about "people" really meaning "gossip." Because, really, I don't think it gets more base than that.
That last line was funny.
That quote has also haunted, and guided me in my conversations.
Great article.